There have been quite a lot of posts here recently (including one of mine) that touched on this topic, and honestly I haven't loved what I have seen from cis folks, including a bunch who seem to habitually date trans women.

So something of a PSA for y'all cis folks who are interested in dating trans women (which is great!).

I'm a trans woman, I date all over the gender spectrum including cis folks. I've experienced the problem I'm going to talk about a lot, and I've ended relationships over it.

Background:

It is fairly common for cis poly folks, particularly cis women, to date trans women. Trans women tend to be over represented on dating apps, and are anecdotally much more likely to match, message, and end up on a date than cis women.

The problem:

Cis people wield societal power over trans people, and trans women face a particularly virulent form of oppression called transmisogyny. Oppression is a power differential, from privileged to disadvantaged. Just like an age gap relationship with a very young participant, that cis-trans gap creates pressures and risks.

In general, power gaps lead to blindspots in the privileged folks and a pressure to be small in the oppressed folks. In society in general, we trans women tend to do our best to take up as little space as possible, to be non-challenging and non-confrontational.

How this plays out in relationships:

Most cis people that are open to dating trans women aren't monsters, or fetishists, or anything like that. Most are well intentioned, but many cis poly don't take enough care making sure the power gap doesn't cause harm.

Trans women are more likely (than cis folks) to accomodate your needs. We are more likely to try to impress. We are more likely to hold our tongues when there is an issue that is affecting us. We are more likely to back down, or make ourselves small, if it makes you feel more comfortable. We are more likely to avoid conflict. Often we aren't even aware we are doing it, it is simply built in to how the world treats us.

The solution:

You don't need to read her mind. You don't need to ask her. In fact, don't ask her! You need to assume this is happening and do everything you can to minimise the effects of the power imbalance.

To start with, accept you are an oppressor. You are transphobic and transmisogynistic. Everyone is. Your very existence creates power over your partner. Especially for cis women, this might be a big blindspot because it is the opposite of what they are used to navigating a world of patriarchy.

If you reject being called an oppressor, you aren't ready to date trans women.

You need to accept that dating trans women takes effort. More than dating a cis person, all other things being equal. You need to educate yourself and defend us against even casual transphobia because you putting up with it is gonna hurt.

If you aren't ready to violently shoot down your closest and dearest for being mildly transphobic, you aren't ready to date trans women.

You need to actually examine yourself. It is easy to date someone who is too accommodating, too giving, and taught by the world that their comfort matters less than yours. That lovely, easy feeling is literally benefiting from our oppression. You need to actively root out any complacency you have and commit to an ongoing regular program of self reflection.

If you aren't ready to vigilantly fight your cis privilege in your relationship, you aren't ready to date trans women.

You need to do this yourself. She can't teach you. She can't point out every time you aren't doing it right. She doesn't have the energy, doesn't need more work to do, and probably doesn't even notice because almost everyone in her life that she didn't carefully curate is casually awful to her. You need to be safe for her, and that isn't her responsibility.

If you haven't already thought about any of this stuff or how your power dynamic works, you aren't ready to date trans women.

You need to precommit to the sort of behaviour you think is reasonable and don't deviate from that standard even if you think she will understand. You (and she) will never be able to tell how much of her "understanding" is a reflection of your privilege and her oppression. This includes how much effort you will put into relationships and what you will do if your partner is putting in more effort.

Dating someone you hold power over is constant work. You don't have to do their work, but you can't just assume you are good. Don't fall into the trap of accepting the benefits of your privilege just because you don't notice the million things that try to hurt her every day. Treat her well, and don't wait for a trans person to tell you that you need to.

And, for the love of our transgender gods, if you find yourself only ever dating trans women take it as a really big flag that you need to examine your privilege. Even if it is just because they are there and they make it easy for you... that's still privilege. If you haven't even noticed it and questioned it, it's gonna be the tip of the iceberg.

Hope that helps.

EDIT/RESPONSE Hey y'all thanks for the discussion around this. I see a lot of requests to moderate some of the language, but the majority of trans people kind of agree with the gist.

Anyone struggling, especially cis folks who feel like they are being demonised, please think about the instructive example I used at the top. I perhaps should have highlighted that more but didn't want to draw an analogy too strongly.

In age gap relationships there is a power differential. It is inherent, about a fundamental attribute of the older person. They can't help it. But because of that attribute, because of how (when) they were born, they have power over the younger participant. And every action they need to take, daily, is the same as what I've written here. They need to critically analyse how they are interacting and ensure they aren't taking advantage of that power. And that is literally all I said. If you agree with these statements, you agree with 99% of the post.

But age gap relationships aren't about oppression. There is no clear systemic oppression of 25 year olds by 50 year olds. There is privilege accrued with age (power, wealth, security), and some privilege lost with age (attractiveness, health etc). But there isn't oppression.

If a trans person calls me a transphobic slur, it feels very different than if a cis person does. If a trans person doesn't call out transphobia directed at me it feels different then when a cis person ignores it. This is because these people belong to different categories in the oppressor/oppressed dynamic. Sometimes a trans person doing the "bad thing" hurts more, sometimes it hurts less. That's context based. But it's not the same, because oppression is systemic but it affects us on the individual level. I personally react and feel different about the same action taken but different individuals because society has taught me they have different meanings. That is what oppression is, minority stress, hypervigilance, the build up of infinite microaggressions.

I can and do work on all that in therapy, but nobody oppressed ever gets to a point they are no longer oppressed by doing work on themselves.

So I use the term oppression. Because it isn't just privilege. Your actions affect me, they don't just give you benefits.

Had to rant somewhere since I have no support system I guess. Throwaway obviously.

I'm in a poly relationship with two guys. Everything is fine. We move in together. Threesomes more than I can count, sometimes four.

Anyway, got pregnant. Whatever, I'm 28. I don't mind, I honestly don't.

What breaks me is the discussion over who the father is.

I don't want to take a test.

I don't care who the father is.

If you didn't mind f**** me three days a week with someone else in the same bed, you shouldn't mind the risk of not being the guy that finished last or fist that day or whatever.

It's driving me crazy how guys even care who is the real father.

Maybe it's the hormones talking, I don't know.

That's it. That's the post.

Edit: Some y'all mad and need to do some self-reflection. Maybe that feeling inside is your conscience convicting you about being being deceptive and you have some inner work that needs to get done.

I don't know if I'm looking for advice or just needing to vent, but here it goes. My wife of over 10 years absolutely hates the girl I want to date and have feelings for. I offered to parallel date this girl so that they have absolutely no contact, but my wife refuses, even though my wife has offered to do parallel poly dating before. Now, she is completely not okay with parallel because she wants us to be friends with each other's metas. She said that if I date this girl that she hates, she will consider our relationship dead. We won't divorce, but there will be no salvaging our relationship.

Edit for information: The reason my wife hates this girl is that this girl can be hot-headed and, in the heat of the moment, has said some not-nice things about my wife; she's always apologized afterwards. Never said these things to her, just about her to me. My wife has also accused me of trying to replace my wife with this girl. My wife has in the past made me break up with / or stop seeing other girls. She said that she is fine with me dating, but the past has proven otherwise. One of the not-nice things this girl has said is that my wife is controlling.

Edit #2: I truly am a masochist for doing this but here I am with some additional information. The first time my wife found out about my ex saying that she was controlling and manipulative was because I was trying to get some information about a conversation that they had about me. Yes, that one was my mistake. The second time was when my ex was trying to call things off because she thought my wife was being controlling and my wife took my phone to see why I was so upset. To address the bad hinges comments, this was my first time being in a relationship. Yes, I fucked up, and yes I am still fucking up consistently (about different things though). I'm still learning on how to manage being in 2 relationships.

Is it just me? Half the posts here are: We’re polyamorous, but I’m made uncomfortable when someone else comes into our relationship.

I’m happy that people are trying new things. But no one goes to r/swimming and says: I want to be an Olympic swimmer, but I hate getting wet.

  What would y’all do if your poly husband has sex, in your car , on your driveway (where you have many friend neighbors) at 1am , while your wife (non poly) waits for you outside (for you to supposedly say goodbye to her when she visited) and listens to the fast movement of a car, plus moaning realizing it’s your own husband fucking his girlfriend at YOUR HOUSE. Should I add… you clearly let your husband be poly, but under one condition… to never ever have sex them alone with YOU in another room, and to say the least, to do it where you’re all friends with your neighbors & they could possibly see or hear them. Clearly he promised me that wouldn’t happen, and failed to comply… to say the least once confronted he states IM the CRAZY one and that I’m the one causing the fuss to the street 😒 am I really crazy, jealous or being a bitch and not giving them their privacy??? 😩

Wife and I have been together for 7 years, married for 3. We opened our relationship about a year ago. She finally met someone and on a date and he told her his favorite book series. Wife and I talk about it casually and how we both wanted to eventually read it too. A few weeks later I buy the 1st book. She later see’s my amazon purchase and says I ruined the surprise because that’s what she was going to get me for Valentine’s day. I return my copy and wait for her gift to arrive.

We get a box in the mail and I open it to find 2 books! I think to myself “Ohh wow she got Book#1 AND Book#2 for me awesome!” but then I realized it was two identical copies of Book 1. I message her and say “Please don’t tell me you got your husband and your new partner of 3 months the same exact gift”. She tells me to not assume the worst in her and that she made a mistake with her ADHD and accidentally bought 2 copies (Lie #1). I bury my feelings. She says she’s just going to return the 2nd copy and she put it on the counter (Lie #2).

She is notorious for forgetting to returns things on time so I immediately notice when the book is gone, but I get a gut feeling, because I notice it’s also the same day she’s supposed to spend the night with her partner. So I think to myself… Either she’s suddenly super responsible or she’s lying and going to give it to him (my feelings be damned).

She gets home and I say “Hey did you return the extra copy.” She says “Yeah today… no wait I returned it yesterday” (Lie #3) I say okay cool, bury my gut feeling a 2nd time and then start doubting myself. I could have sworn the book was moved this morning. I think to myself “maybe I’m miss-remembering”. A few hours go by and I just can’t shake the feeling, so before she leaves I tell her

“Can you promise me that you really returned the book and you’re not just going to give it to your boyfriend? I trust you but I just have this gut feeling I can’t shake. So I’ll give you one last chance now because if I find out months later you lied about all this I know things will be much worse”.

Well… That was it. She confessed to everything. She said I shouldn’t be mad because I got the book AND will get some other gift too, so it’s not like we got the exact same thing. I tell her… that it literally IS the exact same thing but with a bonus gift. I tell her “Does it not seem even a little bit messed up that you gave your husband of a decade, the favorite book of your new boyfriend… Literally new BF favorite book for my husband too.” Am I insane for feeling this way? I know it’s just a book but is it wrong to expect more after 10 years?

We exchange a few other calm words before I say “Are we going to address the lying now? And the fact we’re in an open relationship and transparency is everything, and after 10 years we have Never lied to each other until now.” She tells me that we’ve both made mistakes on our poly journey like… the one time I stepped over her boundary and told someone about our open relationship before I was supposed to. We had discussed and moved past that before, but even then, I said it wasn’t comparable because I never once lied about anything. We spoke a bit more, but before she left she said she was sorry and that she didn’t mean to hurt me but that things are getting serious with her partner and that today is actually the day they are making it official and celebrating formally getting together. Yup on the exact same day she confessed to lying to me.

I think deep down maybe I was hoping she’d choose to stay in and tell her BF to kicks rocks because she had to make it up to her husband tonight but nope. It’s like the more she falls for her bf the worst she gets at remembering to be a loving wife and no matter how much I voice it or how much she says “I understand” it just goes in one ear and out the other. I’m the main breadwinner and we don’t have kids so it wouldn’t be too difficult for us to split but it’s also been over a decade of us living together.

I’m honestly just looking for some advice. I honestly don’t know what to do going forward. Is this something worth ending things over or asking her to move out or if this is just normal poly problems?

TLDR: My wife got a new boyfriend after 3 months and gifted him and I (Husband for 3 years together for 10 years) both his favorite book for Valentine’s day. Lied about it 3 times and then finally came clean and said she didn’t see anything wrong with it. First lie in 10 years and not sure what to think. Looking for advice.

Maybe I am naïve but this seems like such a non-issue to me. I don't control my partner's body - they are not my child they do not need my permission. I do not have a "right" to barrier-less free sex with them. They are able to make their own decisions about their body as well as change their mind.

If my partner didn't use a condom with someone else, I can use a condom with them or refrain from sexual contact. They can get tested if they want to once again have barrier-free contact with me. I can be disappointed by this sure, but using a condom doesn't have to be a big deal or a relationship issue.

I just don't understand the ownership over your partners body or sexual choices and am tired of seeing the same issue over and over again.

Edit: This does not include situations where partner either lies about their condom usage or does not tell you about it, cause that tis unethical and not consensual.

Strange question maybe but are there people here who have been poly in such a way that men have been truly decentered?

In a polycule where men’s needs truly aren’t made priority by accident and women aren’t subconsciously picking up slack?

Are there any truly truly feminist (not just queer feminist or liberal feminist or sex liberal) polycules out there? Or am I, by committing to the lifestyle also committing to biting my tongue for the rest of my life?

Info: been poly since I was like 16 and am 28 now. It felt like the utopia I described when everyone was trans or lesbian I’ve read all the theory and gone to all the therapy but right now I’m dating a mostly straight guy, and my girlfriend is quite.. like chill with men herself. So are the people my partner dates which makes sense given he is a man

But I don’t know how to consolidate these two lives; the lesbian feminist one in search for true liberation- with this notion I seem to encounter again and again in poly spaces that men and women are equals because they’re trying very hard to be. While the patterns of inequality are constantly present.

I want to live happily poly and feel generous and loving (or at least liking, not feel like an alien) around the people my partners date.

But I also feel like I can’t breathe when nobody understands my position as a butch person and seem content to reproduce their gender roles

How can I be around people who don’t find my equality to be all that important?

EDIT: This should be understood as an emotional rant, as an expression of fear and vulnerability. Please be mindful of your defensiveness if possible; this is not an attack on you or anyone. I am trying to express my fears as a transmasc/butch person with a lot of trauma and to get wiser so as to what our thoughts as a community are on the sexism and heteronormativity in our community

I’ve been reading a lot of the posts in here, and i gotta say there is a ton of negativity in this community. I don’t know if it’s just a reddit thing or a poly thing in general, but more times than not the “advice” i see being given here is like “give up, dump them, you’re not doing it right, they’re an ass blah blah blah” and that’s coming from multiple people in multiple threads, even when the OP is like “i’m happy things are great”.

I get that being poly is hard work, and not for everyone, and that it takes time and experience to build healthy poly relationships… but y’alls. What the heck?

Anyone have any suggestions for a more positive and supportive place to learn and connect to other poly people? Cause so far this ain’t it…

Edit: I have gotten a lot of good replies that have given me some other perspectives. I think I did misunderstand things and jump to conclusions. I don't think my meta reads my texts in general. I apologized to both for overreacting and they are hopefully doing cool trip stuff and not thinking about any of this right now.

Edit2: Ah good old reddit. I got my first Reddit cares message! Lol thanks kind redditor

I’ve been with my boyfriend Mike for 2 years. Mike and his wife Kate are on a 10 day trip right now. Mike told me while he was driving on this trip he might get Kate to help him respond to text messages. I don’t think I said anything about that idea at the time because I assumed she’d be texting me from her own phone. I didn’t ask for anything like that but I thought it wouldn’t hurt.

The other day I texted Mike to ask how long they had to drive that day, not an urgent question or anything.

Kate texted me a response, from Mike’s phone, from our private message thread. She identified herself in the message, but I was immediately upset by this because those were my private messages to Mike. I never said it was ok for her to read or respond to my direct messages to him and if I had had any inkling that’s what he meant, I would have squashed that idea with vengeance. Mike and I have had many conversations about phone privacy and how gross I think it is when partners access each other’s phones.

So it was completely unexpected and I was shocked. The way she worded things too I kinda got the feeling she was taking over our text messages for the rest of the trip. I don’t know if that part was actually intentional or if it is communication style differences between Kate and me. But I did get the impression that she was sitting there on his phone and would be taking over messaging while he was driving.

Well I lost my shit. I felt like I didn’t know who I was talking to and it felt terrible. I sent a bunch of texts to Mike’s phone saying I never agreed to Kate reading our messages. I mentioned how I already felt insecure when Mike goes on long trips with his wife. I was polite but obviously freaked out.

Anyway I didn’t hear anything back for awhile except (I think) Mike himself texted me he was driving.

Over the past day and a half I’ve heard a lot of things from both of them about what happened. They were both apologetic and realized it was a big deal but their stories about what happened don’t match 100%. I texted them separately about it.

-Mike said he asked her to do it while he was driving

-Kate said she just saw my text message and decided impulsively to help out by replying

-Mike said she doesn’t read my text messages

-in regards to my angry texts about it, Mike vaguely said something about, what if she saw those messages while using the gps on his phone (what? I thought she didn’t read my text messages? also just mute your notifications while driving or use your own phone for gps)

-Kate said she was stoned

-Kate said she did it from a place of love and kindness (ah, yes, the good reasons to violate someone’s boundaries /s)

-Mike told me he hadn’t discussed the incident or my angry texts about it with her

-Kate said she doesn’t read our text messages

-Kate apologized for making me feel insecure, meaning she read at least some of my other texts to Mike

I felt like they were both making excuses and covering up for each other instead of actually addressing the issue. And I don’t think my texts to Mike have been as private as I thought.

I wanted to try to work it out until I talked to Kate but then more untruths just kinda piled up after I got her side of the story. I asked if they do that often, read each other’s text messages. She said she had already told me she didn’t read my text messages and then shut down the conversation from there.

I told Mike to call me or come see me when he’s back but I’m not going to be texting him anymore. And then I deleted the texting app we use.

But honestly what am I going to do with a boyfriend I can’t text? That’s not something I want in my life.

He’s not at a place with phone access so I am not probably not going to hear from him until he gets back in about a week.

I’m not sure if I can be in this relationship anymore and I’m devastated.

Not sure what I want out of this post, validation maybe. I don't even care if I'm overreacting. So be it.

Basically, if you're not having sex with them than you don't need to know - you only need to know your partners STI status and what risks they're willing to take with their sexual health to know what they might be exposing you to based on those risks.

I keep coming across so much hierarchy and couples privilege in online polyam groups where the primary partner feels entitled to know what the other person's STI results are before their partner engages with them. No. You don't need the results, you need to know that tests were had, results provided to your partner, and that your partner feels comfortable exposing themselves, if applicable.

If you're not comfortable with the risks your partner is willing to take than you protect your own sexual health by using barriers with your partner, but you're not entitled to know of, or dictate about, the details of your metas/potential metas STI results.

. . . Weird, I edited this but it apparently didn't stick. Edit:

Apparently some people aren't understanding what I mean. Your partner absolutely should know the STI status of whomever they're having sex with, and your partner should inform you if they are doing anything that puts you at risk, but your partner should be centering themselves, not the other partner.

There is a big difference between "I've decided to have sex with someone who is positive for ___ STI, these are the precautions I intend to take" and "____ is positive for ___ STI" -- in the first example it centers the partner who's risk factor can directly affect your sexual health, the second example violates a person's right to medical privacy.

 TLDR: Discovering you or your partner wants a polyamorous relationship doesn’t make you or them polyamorous. Having polyamorous relationships, bearing witness to your partner having polyamorous relationships, and functioning well within in makes you polyamorous. Do not feel pressured by declarations of “I think I am polyamorous”. Such a statement is the beginning of what should be a long and thoughtful set of conversations and negotiations on how to proceed.  

DISCLAIMER:

This isn’t about gatekeeping polyamory.

My claim may be a hot take for those who see being polyamorous as [EDIT] an orientation . I’m less interested in whether I piss you off and more interested in the newbies and people who come here seeking advice when their partners “come out as polyamorous”. Or those who think they are polyamorous and want to know how to bring it up with their monogamous partners. The thing I dislike the most is people weaponizing a polyamorous orientation or "coming out" to manipulate their partners into doing what they want.

And it seems there are many such posts on this sub.

POLYAMORY?

• The ability to love multiple people isn’t what makes polyamorous. That just makes you an average human being.

• The desire or need to build romantic relationships with multiple people makes you a prime candidate for a polyamorous relationship.

• The ability to bear witness to your partner building romantic relationships with others (primary) and then for you to do the same with others (secondary), is what makes you polyamorous.

I see it as; you aren’t a thing until you’ve experienced it.

STORYTIME ANALOGY

All your life you have known you were made for the skies. You want to be a pilot. You need to be a pilot. It feels like it’s in your blood and you can never be happy if you’re not able to be in the air. Wanting it doesn’t make you a pilot. Needing it doesn’t make you a pilot. Training – getting an education (self-taught or formal), building a toolkit, and then getting in the air and practicing and succeeding (launching, flying, and landing without dying) – is what makes you a pilot. (I’m going to skip the certification part because there’s no licensing for relationships. Nor am I suggesting that there should be.)

RELATIONSHIPS ARE AGREEMENTS

A monogamous relationship is a more restrictive agreement between two people to engage in certain behaviors with only their partner. Each monogamous couple should decide what this covers (is having friends of the opposite sex cheating? Is flirting cheating? Is fantasizing about someone who isn’t your partner cheating?)

Unfortunately, since monogamous relationships are most societies’ standard, we often gloss over the fact (or aren’t even taught) that it’s an agreement and that the elements should be agreed upon by both parties and not assumed.

A polyamorous relationship is more non-restrictive agreement between two people wherein they can both build loving romantic (and sexual, if inclined) relationships with others. It requires everything to be discussed and agreed upon. Nothing should be assumed.

WHAT TO DO?

For both partners:

• Polyamory is an Enthusiastic Consent type of agreement. If one of you is not enthusiastic, don’t do it.

• You or your partner can choose not to agree to change the relationship to a polyamorous one. You may both choose to remain in a monogamous relationship, or you may choose to end it.  

• Both of you can change your minds as your relationship experiences progress. At that point, the agreements need to be revisited and either of you can choose to end your relationship.

To the person receiving the “I think I may be polyamorous” information from their partner:

• Your partner’s declaration does not mean anything in itself. It is just a declaration.

• Your partner will not die if they can’t explore polyamory. They may be unhappy. They can survive it. We are all adults who can control our actions. Managing ourselves based on feelings we cannot control is what it means to be an adult and is necessary to be in a poly relationship.

• Doing nothing does not mean you are suppressing your partner.

• Not agreeing with changing your relationship from monogamous to polyamorous does not mean you are suppressing your partner.

• Opening the relationship so your partner can explore while you remain monogamous is not proving your partner is polyamorous. If this “mono”-poly type relationship works, it only proves that you are capable of being polyamorous.

• Only agree to change the relationship from monogamous to polyamorous if you want to build romantic relationships with others as well.

To the person who thinks they are polyamorous:

• It’s no small matter to be able to acknowledge, out loud to your partner, that you may want a different relationship style. You’ve taken a risk. Truly, congratulations.

• Feeling like you can no longer thrive in a monogamous relationship will not kill you. You may not be able to control your feelings, but we are adults who can control our actions/behaviors.

• If you cannot control yourself, then end your relationship with the person you are in a monogamous relationship with. Do not burden them with your incapacity. You should not be in any kind of relationship with anyone if you cannot control your behaviors.

• If you have “discovered” you are polyamorous because you’ve already started to cross the line with someone outside of your relationship agreement and want to pursue it, then STOP. Stop that shit right now. You’ve already cheated on your partner. You have already violated your agreement and have no right to put the burden of “fixing” the agreement on your partner by asking them to change it. What you can do is stop whatever relationship was crossing the line and put time and distance between you and that situation.  Start reading and researching. If after that you want to broach the topic with your partner, then go forth.

• If you want to have romantic relationships with others but cannot stomach the idea of your partner doing the same, then you are not polyamorous. You don’t want a polyamorous relationship. You want a harem.

As always, I love our discussions on this sub. I hope that I haven't misspoken gravely and that this rant helps anyone uncertain of what many of us are trying to do here. Please share, agree, disagree, curse me out, etc. etc. etc!

EDIT to change the word "identity" to "orientation". A user pointed out my error. I'm sorry for the misuse!

Does anyone else have issue with the "cool girl" (link, quote, below, basically, a person who is always happy, always game, makes no demands, and essentially changes their personality in order to be liked by their romantic interest) as a meta?

Yes, I know it's not a competition, but comparisons are inevitable. And I can see how appealing it is to have a partner who is always thrilled with every decision or suggestion you make (I am not that person--I have my own opinions and desires, and I speak up for myself).

I feel like my partners often find themselves with these Cool Girls, but they don't want to see them as Cool Girls, and just believe these women are being genuine while I sit back biting my tongue until it's bloody until at some point the harbored resentment explodes--best case--or the CG becomes a cowgirl--worst case.

It's hard even with awesome hinges, I often feel bad or frustrated vocalizing a negative opinion (no, I don't like that restaurant/activity/sex move) when I know the meta is always positive. And it sucks the most when I suspect they are doing it because they want to be the "preferred" partner (again, no fault of hinge).

If this resonates with anyone, I'd love to hear your thoughts! Quote and link:

https://genius.com/Gillian-flynn-gone-girl-cool-girl-monologue-book-annotated

Men always say that as the defining compliment, don’t they? She’s a cool girl. Being the Cool Girl means I am a hot, brilliant, funny woman who adores football, poker, dirty jokes, and burping, who plays video games, drinks cheap beer, loves threesomes and anal sex, and jams hot dogs and hamburgers into her mouth like she’s hosting the world’s biggest culinary gang bang while somehow maintaining a size 2, because Cool Girls are above all hot. Hot and understanding. Cool Girls never get angry; they only smile in a chagrined, loving manner and let their men do whatever they want. Go ahead, shit on me, I don’t mind, I’m the Cool Girl.
Men actually think this girl exists. Maybe they’re fooled because so many women are willing to pretend to be this girl. For a long time Cool Girl offended me. I used to see men – friends, coworkers, strangers – giddy over these awful pretender women, and I’d want to sit these men down and calmly say: You are not dating a woman, you are dating a woman who has watched too many movies written by socially awkward men who’d like to believe that this kind of woman exists and might kiss them. I’d want to grab the poor guy by his lapels or messenger bag and say: The bitch doesn’t really love chili dogs that much – no one loves chili dogs that much! And the Cool Girls are even more pathetic: They’re not even pretending to be the woman they want to be, they’re pretending to be the woman a man wants them to be. Oh, and if you’re not a Cool Girl, I beg you not to believe that your man doesn’t want the Cool Girl. It may be a slightly different version – maybe he’s a vegetarian, so Cool Girl loves seitan and is great with dogs; or maybe he’s a hipster artist, so Cool Girl is a tattooed, bespectacled nerd who loves comics. There are variations to the window dressing, but believe me, he wants Cool Girl, who is basically the girl who likes every fucking thing he likes and doesn’t ever complain. (How do you know you’re not Cool Girl? Because he says things like: “I like strong women.” If he says that to you, he will at some point fuck someone else. Because “I like strong women” is code for “I hate strong women.”)

First to say I love Polyamory and I truly believe that the existence of this conversations is a positive for every type of relationship style.
That being said this sub has only contributed to my anxieties and insecurities, the only posts that get to my main page from this sub are problems and horror stories, it feels more like a relationship advice type sub rather than a sub that celebrates poly, where are the nice stories, where are the happy relationships, and poly wedding pics. I love that a place to ask for advice exists and It is necessary but throw a positive bone out there plz I know they exist.
Again not shitting on polyamory, the mods, nor the people looking for advice at all, just venting about the imbalance between positive and negative posts in this sub.
love to all and post some nice wins :3

Edit bcs I think I got misunderstood a bit.
first: I know every releshionship type sub tends to problems bcs happy people tend to not talk about it and we just love drama.
second: where does it says this is Primarily an advice sub, its definitely part of it but lately its all I have seen here (reading the description of the sub)
third: I am just venting people thanks for the happy flair though going to keep that on or maybe just leave the sub bcs its not very healthy for me

EDIT 2 and final Edit: ok I read all the coments and I have a few things to say, first I think I need to get better at writing bcs I feel like a lot of people here thought I was attaking this comunity or saying mono is better(no clue where I sayed that) so for the missunderstanding I will say sorry, still you people gota chill out I am poly myself.

So a few things I learned from this post.

- first search tags, I often forget I can do that and searching for the happy tag might be a good palet cleanser.

- people love drama its not just this sub (i knew that already but still) so no drama posts tend to not get a lot of traction so I will start engaging more with those types of posts for my own mental health

- this is a thing apparently called Advice Column Paradox and it happens everywhere

- people in the comments of post tend to talk more about happy things and give better examples of happy moments more than in posts

to finish this I will continue being ideotic and try to find happier places in the internet there are some honestly awesome subs with good balances (r/NonBinary is a great example of that) people can get a balance where we ask for advice and ask for help but also share happiness of community and what we have and I truly believe that should be more of the norm in every community but I understand how trends work i never intended to attack or offend anyone.
I will not read more coments now bcs some have been a bit to agresive for my taste :3

I can’t stand this fucking person. I’m sorry I tried everything self soothing techniques, therapy, having a support network to vent. But I just can’t stand the fact they are dating . I can’t conceive that. I don’t know how to come to terms with this. It’s been over a year they are together and each day or time they see each other it hurts more it’s worse I don’t know what to do! My partner already made it clear they will not accept banning this person.

Edit 2. I don't blame him. I'm just sad. We did nothing but kiss and that's it. I gave him time and he couldn't do it. Feelings are feeling and sometimes shouldn't be acted upon. We shouldn't have because now we're both hurting. Of course I share some of the blame. I'm not enjoying that at all. I needed to vent. That's all. To get it out somewhere. Maybe I should have just written it all down in my journal instead of thinking this community could be full of kind people. I didn't ask for advice. I didn't ask to be analysed. I didn't ask for sympathy. Just to shout into the void of the internet. And I understand that when you put things on the internet you cannot control what happens after that. I've been through a lot worse than some unkind comments and down voting. I've been through worse than being rejected by a man.

Thank you to those who have been kind. I appreciate it

Edit. Because people haven't read my comment.

*I don't hate monogamous people. I'm just hurting.

*He carried on as if we had something AFTER he knew he couldn't deal

*I know monogamous people aren't the best people to fall for. But fall I did. You can't help your feelings

• If we don't have hope for the good then what are we living for

The monogamous person I fell for can't deal with polyamory or my kink life.

He thought he could. He flirted. He led me on. He got under my skin the same way my nesting partner did when we first met.

I wanted to introduce him to my wonderful life with my wonderful friends.

I'm hurting but I knew it would come to this.

I don't even know why I'm posting. Can't post on FB because he's a friend in there. Can't post on fet because the person I "dumped" is on there and he's hurting (stopped the relationship before we got together properly and he's acting like we were together for years)

Bloody monogamous people

Had a discussion with a friend yesterday that got lodged in my brain and now I'm curious to hear more perspectives.

I am poly but not super experienced yet. I have always been of the belief that polyamory is not for everyone, that it's just something that works for some folks and not for others. To me, relationship structure preference is just another thing that makes up who a person is, and is shaped by many things including brain wiring and past experiences. Just another flavor of being human, so to speak.

My friend believes that polyamorous people are more "evolved", mature, intelligent, etc. by default than non-polyamorous people. She is otherwise a great person, so I was shocked, and my knee jerk reaction was to tell her that she was being elitist and kinda shitty.

She argued that no, it's not elitism, it's logic: that in order to be polyamorous successfully, one must engage in a lot of personal growth in many areas, and that non-polyamorous people do not achieve this same growth because monogamy doesn't require them to, and anyone that is still monogamous is so because it is too uncomfortable to achieve the personal growth necessary to be comfortable with polyamory.

She gave several examples and argued her point well, but I still have trouble seeing it her way and it doesn't feel right to me. We agreed to disagree, but my brain has been chewing on it ever since and it's bugging me.

What say ye, poly folks of reddit?

Edit: the comments have been super validating! I was doubting myself because while I have been poly longer than her, she has more experience than me. But now I realize that feeling so put off by her comments hasn't been an overreaction. People made some great points that helped me understand this better. It's really is giving "it's not called polyamory unless it comes from the polyamory region of France" vibes and it has me rethinking her as a friend.

It’s really standing out to me, the adoption of “cheating” in specifically the r/polyamory subreddit. I am not seeing this in any other of my online or offline communities—HOWEVER, these are race-specific/RA/solopoly spaces, with networks of familiar people and their own subcultures that have been developing for years, and they don’t have an influx of hundreds of new folks at a time like this sub does (and so, I think these other groups have more established norms and are less susceptible to change). ie I think in these spaces, “cheating” is simply not a preferred turn of phrase.

I’ve been poly for a decade so I’m familiar with the long-running “is this considered cheating?” debate in our communities. I’m assuming this convo will never end. I’m honestly just keeping it going, I’m curious to know what people in this sub think.

In solopoly and RA spaces I’m part of, ime this debate is started by people who are new asking the question: do we use the term “cheating” in poly? And the debate tends to end at “cheating is a word for monogamous people”. I am very inclined to agree, and I personally see it as a symptom of monogamy hangover to use this term. I don’t think we can cheat on each other, I don’t think we have use for the term in poly. I’m very curious to hear especially from sopo and RA folks who disagree!

In the one Black (USA) poly group I’m part of and also among Black people in general, I have never seen this debate. This is just me speculating on my culture that we’re likely to call lying, deception, and manipulation what it is, while “cheating” is a euphemism. Ebonics has a ton of colloquials for the kind of behavior we chastise in this sub (for example) and “cheating” simply doesn’t come up. I’m very curious to hear from US Black poly folk (or anyone else in the diaspora if y’all wanna share) with different experiences/perspectives and feel completely free to disagree with me, your POV matters too.

At least in my individual cultural context, I was raised in a Black family that taught me to call things what they are directly, and I’ve been solopoly/RA for a long while now so I think I have my own personal biases that make me think this term is obsolete in poly spaces.

However, over the last year here on this subreddit, and especially in the last few months, I’ve been seeing more and more people adopt “cheating” to describe their experiences. So obviously the desire to use this term is present among poly folk. I want to be completely transparent not because I’m arrogant but because I think it’s in bad faith to pretend like I am unbiased, because I’m not: I’m of the belief that it’s mostly new people who feel the need to apply this term within the polyamorous context. I am seeing it more frequently here on this sub specifically, and that’s my assumption. I think it’s people for whom the word “cheating” still carries a lot of weight because they come freshly from monogamous dating, and they’re using the terms they have to describe their experiences in polyamorous dating.

Am I wrong? Do you disagree? Different perspective? Any long-term, experienced poly daters who like to use this term (with other poly people—not as a shorthand when speaking with mono friends)? Would love to hear what you think about the “cheating” convo. PSA:

1. I’m going to keep not using the term “cheating” and I’m going to keep ignoring it when other people use it. I don’t go out of my way to shit on people for saying it so if you read the title and it triggered insecurity or shame—you can do whatever the hell you want and I can’t stop you, I bet I do shit that annoys you, what I think ultimately doesn’t matter as I’m just a speck of dust and we’re all gonna die, etc. Also consider just maybe scrolling by if you hate this convo?

2. I can’t control what you do but like, just be honest. We all know that “shoe” can mean “apple” in the right community. But if you could skirt that “we can use any words at any time to mean anything” (valid) and focus more on why “cheating” deserves space in poly dating when it was made for and by the monogs, I would personally really appreciate that.

All that being said, I can’t stress enough that my internet stranger words are not a chain and shackle and that I have no control over what you do. So. Uuuh, what do y’all think about this term???!

I have three wives. We've been in a poly relationship for some time now. For this I'll have to tell you their names: Christina, Vanessa and Melanie.

So after a while of dating the three of them we moved into a tiny apartment together. Life was good. Nessa and I talked about marriage actually, so we were all considering it.

It was a beautiful fall day when I proposed to Chrisy. It was late. I told the girls today is a Chrisy day (we have days where I focus all of my attention on one girl, it makes them feel special and like individuals and stuff). I took her out for dinner, we had some pretty passionate sex, and now we were going on a late walk. I took her to a serene little area looking over a tiny lake and river, we followed the river till we found a cute little patch of soft grass with no mud.

I told Chrisy that she was so special and wonderful to me, how beautiful she was, and how much I loved her. I said "I love everything about you, you are my star."

I got down on one knee and asked her to marry me. I said "since you were the first girl in our quad I dated, it's only appropriate you are the first one I marry."

A few weeks later, during a Nessa day, I took Vanessa to a high end $100+ restaurant. When it came time for dessert, her cake came with a special vanilla and diamond ring icing. She audibly said holy shit it's a ring out loud. I took that as my cue to assume the position, and I said "you are beautiful and perfect in any way, and my life is incomplete without you by my side. Please, allow me the privilege of spending the rest of my life with you".

2 down, one to go. So we agreed that Nessa will be the official government marriage, but now, a month later, and with my bank account in the red, I still had one more thing to do.

Melanie had definitely felt left out. So I took her on a weekend retreat, just us, to Montreal which is beautiful in the winter. We went for a walk down the old streets, I took her for dinner, and I told her this; "you, Nessa, Chrisy and I are all one unit. We need you." In the hotel room, we were getting into it, and when we were both naked I stopped things for a moment and I took the ring out of my pocket and I beckoned her over. Standing, looking in her eyes, I slipped the ring on her finger. "I love you so much Mel. You complete our relationship. I need you. We need you. You are such a special and amazing girl, and I've loved you from the moment I met you. Please marry me, please complete my life."

She said yes :p

We had a private, non-religious wedding ceremony where the three of them walked down our makeshift aisle together and exchanged vows. When our marriage person said "you may kiss the bride" It took a minute to decide who to kiss first.

Oh yeah. And the post marriage foursome was amazing.

Alright. I'm prepared to get a lot of hate here but here I go.

I am new to poly with my partner. We recently discovered that he is born poly, and I am willing to look into being poly by choice. We are hoping for a triad or quad that we can both be involved in. We are unmarried but have been together for 6 years.

I say that because as soon as I try to talk about our discovering the poly life style in this sub Reddit, we instantly get labeled "unicorn hunters" and told that we are horrible and need to go back into mono.

This sub has members who gatekeep and try to shame people who are just trying to learn what poly means for them, back into mono. Frankly who are just as judgemental as people who call all poly people "cheaters".

It's time to face facts: some of the most common poly situations are going to be people who are in a mono relationship learning that mono isnt the only option, and not wanting to lose each other and going into this intially with the mind set of "we need to experience this together at first"

All I'm saying is before you shame people and call them names, maybe think of the fact that not everyone is out to just to get a threesum. And if you experienced this as a unicorn, that sucks and I'm sorry.

But everyones knowledge gap has to start somewhere.

It's just so exhausting, it always ends with either the guy hitting on me or making ick comments, or fetishing our relationship, or worse, the woman treating me like a pretty plaything before running back to her "real" partner. Or, being treated as a learning experience or a trial.

A few friends in my circle have issues with this, but it's just self defence at this point.

Edit: I am a bisexual woman. I wouldn't not date bi women, period. I simply wouldn't date bi women in hierarchy with a relationship to a man at the top. Including nesting with one. Nor one without experience dating outside of cishet men.

I literally cannot fathom why some people on this subreddit keep pushing so hard against the fact (yes, fact) that some people feel polyamory (or any other relationship dynamic) as part of their identity.

I do understand that some people claim "identity" as a means to unethical ends.

I do understand that some people claim "poly as an identity" is somehow equivalent to LGBTQIA+ (which is about gender and sexuality, so of course it isn't).

But I cannot understand the self-righteous dogma in invalidating other people's senses of self and prescriptiveness in use of terms that have generic meanings outside of gender and sexuality, such as "identity", "orientation", and "inherent".

Meanings are not prescriptive. There is no "should" in linguistics, only "what is". Meanings come from usage and common understanding. There can, of course, be shades of meaning. And of course definitions themselves must be composed, but at heart they intend to express meanings in use.

When people tell you polyamory is an identity for them, what do you think they mean by "identity"? Does your conception of the term "identity" accord with that person's? Are you informed about all the shades of meaning in usage of that term or are you simply applying your own?

Do you confuse "inherent" and "innate" or assume the other person does, when maybe they don't (although many do)?

The interesting thing I have noted is that the "identity crowd" on this subreddit is not attempting to impose their conceptions and experiences on others, though the "not an identity" crowd definitely does.

But what even is identity?

According to the American Psychological Association (I suppose with specific reference to how it is used in psychosocial literature), identity is:

an individual’s sense of self defined by (a) a set of physical, psychological, and interpersonal characteristics that is not wholly shared with any other person and (b) a range of affiliations (e.g., ethnicity) and social roles. https://dictionary.apa.org/identity

And here are some other definitions (not "right" by virtue of being in a dictionary, but being in a reputable dictionary by virtue of being recognised uses):

Orientation: a usually general or lasting direction of thought, inclination, or interest https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/orientation

Inherent: involved in the constitution or essential character of something : belonging by nature or habit : INTRINSIC https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/inherent

If you don't agree with the standard dictionary definitions of "identity", you are not alone.

Though somewhat outdated now (such is societal progress since 1999), the following gives what I see to be an insightful overview into conceptions of "identity", both within academic spheres and in the general populace:

https://web.stanford.edu/group/fearon-research/cgi-bin/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/What-is-Identity-as-we-now-use-the-word-.pdf

Here are some choice quotes:

"Identity” as we now know it derives mainly [from] the work of psychologist Erik Erikson in the 1950s; dictionary definitions have not caught up, failing to capture the word’s current meanings in everyday and social science contexts. The analysis yields the following summary statement. As we use it now, an “identity” refer[s] to either (a) a social category, defined by membership rules and (alleged) characteristic attributes or expected behaviors, or (b) socially distinguishing features that a person takes a special pride in or views as unchangeable but socially consequential (or (a) and (b) at once).

Personal identity is a set of attributes, beliefs, desires, or principles of action that a person thinks distinguish her in socially relevant ways and that (a) the person takes a special pride in; (b) the person takes no special pride in, but which so orient her behavior that she would be at a loss about how to act and what to do without them; or (c) the person feels she could not change even if she wanted to.

Social scientists sometimes seem to want to restrict “identity” to a social category whose members subjectively identify with the category. This won’t capture ordinary language usage, where it is not necessary that individuals identify with a category for it to be called an identity. For example, a person’s ethnic identity might be German even if he or she is completely indifferent to this fact.

In many cases it might be clearer and better to use “social category” rather than “identity.” While identity-as-a-social-category captures much of what academics often mean by the term, this simple definition does not cover all that we mean by the word. In particular, “an identity is a social category” doesn’t work when we use identity in the sense of personal identity, which may be formulated in terms of a group affiliation but need not be. In addition, even when the word does refer primarily to a social category – nation, gender, sexuality, for instance – it can mean somewhat more than just “social category” because of an implicit linkage with the idea of personal identity.

“identity” can invoke not just a social category (content plus membership rules) but also the unarticulated ways that social identity constitutes personal identity.

[Of social categories specifically (vs personal identities), both role and type:]

Role identities refer to labels applied to people who are expected or obligated to perform some set of actions, behaviors, routines, or functions in particular situations. For example, taxi driver, toll collector, mother, father, president, professor, businessman, student. Type identities refer to labels applied to persons who share or are thought to share some character- istic or characteristics, in appearance, behavioral traits, beliefs, attitudes, values, skills (e.g., language), knowledge, opinions, experience, historical commonalities (like region or place of birth), and so on. There is a presumption that the characteristics are more than transitory, although a type identity such as “teenager” may not be permanent.

Some identities or social categories involve both role and type. For example, “mother” is a role, but nonetheless we expect certain beliefs, attitudes, values, preferences, moral virtues, and so on, to be characteristic of people performing the role of mother (understand- ings that may change through time.) On the other hand, some role identities, which mainly but not exclusively comprise occupational categories, have few if any type features associated with them (for example, toll booth collector).

Please, if you have something to say about personal identities, be as thorough as this author. Be as open to understanding interpretation and usage within both academic and lay contexts. Don't assert your personal conception as some sort of absolute truth.

Stop the fuck trying to invalidate others just because you don't "identify" with something about yourself. Because others do.

Addendum: I'm no lexicographer, but I have composed the following definitions with the aim of capturing as precise a meaning as possible that doesn't preclude any dissenting conceptions.

Polyamory: A preference for or inclination towards committed but consensually non-exclusive intimate relationships.

That covers both poly as choice and as identity/relationship orientation.

We can also have separate definitions for poly relationships (practice) and poly people (identity or choice):

Polyamorous person: A person with a preference for or inclination towards having multiple committed but consensually non-exclusive intimate relationships.

Polyamorous relationship: a relationship in which all parties consent to any party having multiple committed but consensually non-exclusive intimate relationships.

And these should all satisfy those who insist that mono/poly relationships are still polyamorous while not precluding one partner from identifying as monogamous (as they don't prefer to have multiple relationships themselves). And any mono/poly pairings (or groups) that don't consider their relationship(s) polyamorous can still use "mono/poly relationship" (ie, having a focus on the preferences or inclinations of different individuals separately).

Can we please, for the love of fuck, try to understand rather than invalidate each other? Can we please base our "feelings" on descriptive semantics and the range of lived experiences rather than dogmatic idiolects and ideologies?

I am sadly disappointed with the moderation of this subreddit in this respect.