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u/StareInUrEyeandPee Jun 29 '20
To be fair, Luke saved Vader AFTER beating the shit out of him with a lightsaber and cutting off his mechanical arm for also threatening his sister
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Jun 29 '20
I wonder if he ever "sensed the good" in any of the 10 million people on the first Death Star and just didn't care.
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u/rwhitisissle Jun 29 '20
Kills 10 million people and then can't bring himself to finish off an asthmatic wrapped in a walking vending machine and an old Nazi bastard in a swivel chair. Sad. 0/10 story telling. /s
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u/Sideswipe0009 Jun 29 '20
an asthmatic wrapped in a walking vending machine
"Now get your 10 foot asthmatic ass back here before I tell you what really happened to Padamambe, or Panda Bear, or whatever the hell her name was."
"Oh geez, he's crying..."
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u/CorporalCauliflower Jun 29 '20
10 million people who already killed a planet with billions.. and are planning on killing another. Lol.
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u/UnspecificGravity Jun 29 '20
I mean, is not like the janitor is sector 23 is all that directly responsible for the actions of the station. I doubt he even had a choice or knew what the station was for, since it was a secret even it was being built.
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u/DaCheezItgod Jun 29 '20
Yeah, probs not seeing as the station was actively preparing to destroy its second planet
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u/therecanbeonlywan Jun 29 '20
Randal: Something just never sat right with me the second time they destroyed it. I could never put my finger on it-something just wasn't right. Dante: And you figured it out? Randal: Well, the thing is, the first Death Star was manned by the Imperial army-storm troopers, dignitaries- the only people onboard were Imperials. Dante: Basically. Randal: So when they blew it up, no prob. Evil is punished. Dante: And the second time around...? Randal: The second time around, it wasn't even finished yet. They were still under construction. Dante: So? Randal: A construction job of that magnitude would require a helluva lot more manpower than the Imperial army had to offer. I'll bet there were independent contractors working on that thing: plumbers, aluminum siders, roofers. Dante: Not just Imperials, is what you're getting at. Randal: Exactly. In order to get it built quickly and quietly they'd hire anybody who could do the job. Do you think the average storm trooper knows how to install a toilet main? All they know is killing and white uniforms. Dante: All right, so even if independent contractors are working on the Death Star, why are you uneasy with its destruction? Randal: All those innocent contractors hired to do a job were killed- casualties of a war they had nothing to do with. (notices Dante's confusion) All right, look-you're a roofer, and some juicy government contract comes your way; you got the wife and kids and the two-story in suburbia-this is a government contract, which means all sorts of benefits. All of a sudden these left-wing militants blast you with lasers and wipe out everyone within a three-mile radius. You didn't ask for that. You have no personal politics. You're just trying to scrape out a living.
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u/arrowff Jun 29 '20
Is your argument really that letting it destroy a planet would be more altruistic? Lmfao
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Jun 29 '20
Right? The comparison is funny, but stupid.
One of those situations is literally, "Either I do this right now and thousands of people die followed by billions more enslaved because the rebellion ends" vs. "This one specific battle ending in my father's death actually wouldn't solve anything at all, and if I bring him to my side we could stop the emperor"
It's not even a contest.
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u/Sideswipe0009 Jun 29 '20
Is your argument really that letting it destroy another planet would be more altruistic? Lmfao
FTFY. But you're right. It would be considered self defense. It's either them or us and countless more later.
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u/paragonofcynicism Jun 29 '20
To be fair, if Darth Vader was about to murder someone he cared about in front of him he probably would have killed Vader to save them. The death star was an imminent threat.
In the emperor's throne room, that battle had practically no impact on the overall battle between the rebels and empire. It was an entirely isolated battle for Vader's and Luke's souls. And so he had time to be forgiving.
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u/swampstix79 Jun 30 '20
Don't forget Vader was instructed by the emperor to not kill Luke, so Luke defeated a Vader who was holding back...
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u/KeLorean Jun 30 '20
i think you’re looking at this all wrong. he tried to kill kylo bc only after return of the jedi did luke know the truth out how completely ugly peoples’ faces look after they turn to the dark side. he just wanted to spare kylo this awful transformation that would eventually occur
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u/jackie-bladen Nov 06 '21
Don’t you know he was swinging that deadly weapon with nothing but good non lethal intentions?
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u/E3R0Z Jun 29 '20
He wasn't about to kill Ben, it was just a fleeting thought because he thought that he could stop what happened with Vader right there and then, but felt regret right afterwards. Besides, it's not like he didn't brutally hack off his own fathers hand in a fight with him.
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u/Verifiable_Human Jun 29 '20
Exactly, which I why I will always downvote these kinds of memes. It's so ironic too, that misinterpretation is literally the story Kylo tells
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u/mrconqueso Jun 30 '20
Just to branch off of that; people tout Kylo's words of "letting the past die" as a theme for the whole sequel trilogy. I must've missed where I was supposed to be rooting for Kylo Ren?
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u/lasssilver Jun 29 '20
I really think TLJ was too nuanced for a lot of watchers. Noting who’s telling the story, what it entails, etc..
A bit of logical empathy for Luke helps too, something people seemingly lack.
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u/Enrickel Jun 29 '20
Which is sad, because it's really not even THAT nuanced and it still went way over so many people's heads
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u/kinggiblet Jun 29 '20
To be fair it was more than a fleeting thought. He did our world's equivalent of walking in on him with a loaded gun (since he actually ignited the saber). Also in ROTJ he was engaged in a fight and filled with adrenaline while in TLJ his foe was sleeping.
Not trying to hate on TLJ or Rian but this scene is always going to be odd for me, personally.
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u/E3R0Z Jun 29 '20
He obivously didn't have the intention of killing him when he went to visit him. Luke wasn't going to Ben with the intention of assassinating him while he's sleeping. He only wanted to know what went through Ben's mind because he didn't want to lose him to the dark side, like what happened to his father. When Luke saw how far Ben had already gone, he instinctively activated his lightsaber thinking it was the right thing to do before coming to his senses. He even says it himself in the movie.
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u/Thunderfuck907 Jun 29 '20
A lot of people refuse to acknowledge that Luke is brash and impulsive, always has been
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Jun 29 '20
I appreciate that Luke acknowledges how dumb that move was, but... at the end of the day it was a dumb move with at the time, a dumb cause.
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u/odst94 Jun 29 '20
Yoda tells Anakin "careful you must be when sensing the future, Anakin, the fear of loss is a path to the dark side" in Revenge of the Sith in reference to Anakin's wife Padme. Anakin's son Luke senses the fearful future in his nephew Ben and exhibits a path to the dark side for a brief instant.
Some Star Wars fans need to examine Star Wars beyond its surface of lightsabers and pew pew pews before complaining.
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u/The-Master-M Jun 29 '20
He didn't really "walk in with a loaded gun". He walked in, zoned out, felt Palpatine levels of the dark side and instinctively went to his weapon. Once he snapped out of it he clearly had no intention of doing anything, but it was too late.
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u/kcMasterpiece Jun 29 '20 edited Jun 29 '20
It reminded me 100% of Rashomon by Akira Kurosawa. Nobody giving the different accounts is fully reliable.
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u/Bayerrc Jun 29 '20
He always has his saber on him, and his reactions are lightning fast. He saw that Ben was completely taken over and being controlled by Snoke, saw and felt all the evil and fear, and it caused a knee jerk reaction to ignore his saber. He never made a single move towards killing Ben, just ignited his saber in reaction to all of that realization.
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u/Master_Tallness Jun 29 '20
I think we have to take the way Luke described at face value. He describes what he did as an impulsive reaction to the fear that he was training another Darth Vader. Luke saved his father, yes, but did he believe for a second what his father had become was good? There's not way. He sought to save his father from what he had become. He had a sudden reaction of fear that Ben was going to become what he had worked so hard to save his father from.
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u/terriblehuman Jun 29 '20
He ignited it out of instinct after having an intense vision of the darkness in Ben. Ignorant fanboy descriptions always make this scene sound bad.
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u/odst94 Jun 29 '20
Yoda tells Anakin "careful you must be when sensing the future, Anakin, the fear of loss is a path to the dark side" in Revenge of the Sith in reference to Anakin's wife Padme. Anakin's son Luke senses the fearful future in his nephew Ben and exhibits a path to the dark side for a brief instant.
It's like some of these people don't even pay attention to Star Wars beyond its surface level of lightsabers and pew pew pews.
Thank the Force for constructive Star Wars communities like/r/StarWarsCantina and thank Rian Johnson for flipping Star Wars on its head and removing Star Wars from the box this whiny bratty fandom put it in.
Star Wars "fans" bit the George Lucas hand that fed them and are now crying for him back. In the words of Obi-Wan Kenobi, "you have done that yourself! You have become the very thing you swore to destroy!"
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u/E3R0Z Jun 29 '20
Exactly. Some fans seem to have their own idea of what star wars is, and while that is essentially totally cool, they shouldn't act like their world is the "right" one. There is so much more in star wars, deep below the surface and ignorance of that is no excuse to judge a movie.
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u/odst94 Jun 29 '20
The funny thing too is that the prequel trilogy explained how the Jedi are failures by being a dogmatic pious cult with stubbornness and arrogance in their established power structure. Luke Skywalker, the return of the Jedi, saw through the bullshit of the Jedi in Episode 8, yet some Star Wars fans and the community of /r/prequelmemes venomously hate Rian Johnson and the film that directly addresses the messages and cautionary tale of the blind-trust of the established Jedi structure in the prequels. Luke addressed what was wrong with the Jedi in The Last Jedi.
"What do you know about the Force?"
"It's a power that Jedi have that lets them to control people and make things... float."
"Amazing. Every word in that sentence was wrong. The Force is not a power you have. It's not about lifting rocks. It's the energy between all things, a tension, a balance, that binds the universe together. Breathe. Just breathe. Reach out with your feelings. What do you see?"
"The island. Life. Death and decay, that feeds new life. Warmth. Cold. Peace. Violence."
"And between it all?"
"Balance. And energy. A Force"
"And inside you?"
"Inside me the same Force."
"And this is the lesson. That Force does not belong to the Jedi. To say that if the Jedi die, the light dies is vanity. Can you feel that?"
"Lesson two. Now that they're extinct, the Jedi are romanticized, deified. But if you strip away the myth and look at their deeds, the legacy of the Jedi is failure. Hypocrisy, hubris."
"That's not true!"
"At the height of their powers, they allowed Darth Sidious to rise, create the Empire, and wipe them out. It was a Jedi Master who was responsible for the training and creation of Darth Vader".
Qui-Gon Jinn (and maybe Count Dooku) was the only Jedi who understood and saw the importance of the human/species condition. The Jedi are cultists, take very young children from their families, and raise them to be obedient soldiers just like the First Order. "We're keepers of the peace, not soldiers. Really? Is that why your cult trains 5 year olds to handle lightsabers, Mace? Luke Skywalker was the return of the Jedi and he sure acted like it before realizing its errors and flaws.
/r/prequelmemes has turned into a cult, just like the Jedi, and they're too ignorant to see it. "[They] have become the very thing [they] swore to destroy."
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u/theghostofme Jun 29 '20
The funny thing too is that the prequel trilogy explained how the Jedi are failures by being a dogmatic pious cult with stubbornness and arrogance in their established power structure. Luke Skywalker, the return of the Jedi, saw through the bullshit of the Jedi in Episode 8, yet some Star Wars fans and the community of /r/prequelmemes venomously hate Rian Johnson and the film that directly addresses the messages and cautionary tale of the blind-trust of the established Jedi structure in the prequels.
Fucking preach!
I do not understand how people who love the prequels so much act like Luke’s views on the Jedi is so wrong. The prequels were a scathing indictment of the Jedi Order, and it was imperative to Luke that Rey understood theirs and his mistakes before training her so that she wouldn’t make them too.
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u/Shifter25 Jun 29 '20
People just conveniently forget the Luke vs. Vader fight in RotJ because it hurts their criticism of TLJ.
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u/Hidesuru Jun 29 '20
And it's not like that entire experience plus years of life afterwards might, I dunno. Change a man. I'm actually really sick of this stupid meme. For one we see it every other day. It's also comparing an idealistic boy believing in his father to a battle scared old man looking at his nephew. It's not the freaking same situation.
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u/E3R0Z Jun 29 '20
Some people just want justification for their distaste in the movie.
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u/anarion321 Jun 29 '20
It was more than a thought because he draw his weapon. there was intent.
And the comparasion with Vader is not fair because it was a fight. More than that, it was part of Luke's arc, almost falling to the dark side and helping him undertand it better. In this case, some say that this "instict" thought is part of he being a jedi and wanting to destroy the dark side.
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u/IAmATroyMcClure Jun 29 '20 edited Jun 29 '20
Why does everyone ignore the fact that this took place in a universe where darkness is a powerful outside force constantly trying to penetrate our protagonists?
It says more about Luke's character that he fought off that bad moment, than the fact that the moment occured in the first place. The dark side is a sort of meaningless concept if good people are immune to it. That's just real life morality.
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u/E3R0Z Jun 29 '20
And he wanted to preventit from happening again. If you were a WW2 survivor would you not have wanted to kill someone who wanted to be Hitler, and totally had the means to do it.
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u/odst94 Jun 29 '20
How about the comparison to Yoda telling Luke's father, Vader, "careful you must be when sensing the future, Anakin, the fear of loss is a path to the dark side" in Revenge of the Sith?
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u/m4tuna Jun 29 '20
I’m so tired of this same topic. It’s like no one paid attention. Luke only reacts in this way when people he loves are in danger. He had the same reaction when Vader figures out he has a sister.
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u/odst94 Jun 29 '20
People also conveniently forget Yoda in Revenge of the Sith saying "careful you must be when sensing the future, Anakin, the fear of loss is a path to the dark side". Luke experienced the dire consequences of the Force by being on the dark side for like 2 seconds because of fear of loss, like his father, and seemingly half of this fandom is crying that Rian Johnson ruined their childhood after crying that George Lucas ruined their childhood with midichlorians, implying that these grown adult fans can't be like Luke Skywalker anymore because Luke Skywalker's strength in the Force is due to his microbiome.
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u/TrungusMcTungus Jun 29 '20
Seriously. Yes, Luke tried to redeem Vader, but he also nearly killed him in a blind rage. Passionate moments of anger that cause Luke to go on the offensive aren't exactly out of his character
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u/m4tuna Jun 29 '20
We should grab a cup of tea.
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u/dandaman64 anyways stan rian johnson Jun 29 '20
Can I come too? I'm also tired of this fucking topic being reduced to "LOL LUKE BAD"
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u/eojen Jun 29 '20
I mean one was a dude who was responsible for genocide that Luke had no actual relationship with and the other was the son of his twin sister and best friend that Luke had seen grow up without hurting anyone yet.
Also one was during a fight while Luke's friends were being slaughtered and the other was during the middle of the night while everyone was sleeping.
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u/Angsty_Kylo_Ren Jun 29 '20
They also take Ben's side of the story as truth when the actual side is told to us 5 minutes later. It's infuriating, like they didn't even watch the movies.
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u/Master_Tallness Jun 29 '20
Great point. If anything, it shows growth on Luke's character that he was able to immediately restrain his impulse and not go through with it.
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Jun 29 '20 edited Jun 29 '20
I hate when people use the ROTJ "I'm a Jedi" scene like this because Luke literally tries to kill Vader in the scene before it.
You know, because he was tempted by the dark side.
Because Vader threatened to turn Leia to the dark side.
The TLJ scene is there to show that dealing with the dark side is a constant struggle, Luke got afraid that Kylo would ruin everything he fought for.
What you people don't understand is that TLJ is directly mirroring the "i'm a jedi" scene, the difference being that since Snoke/The Emperor isn't present. Kylo believed that Luke was really going for the kill, thus causing the whole temple fiasco, and Luke only has himself to blame
People also misinterpret the ROTJ scene, what happened there wasn't Luke defeating Palpatine's influence, it was him stopping himself from letting his fear control him,which happens again in TLJ, but at that point it was already too late.
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u/HeavyMetalAstronomer Jun 29 '20
People seem to forget that in real life people aren’t flawless and can have very strong reactions to even the smallest of things. And that Jedi, being force sensitive, are more easily tempted by the dark side than someone who isn’t force sensitive.
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u/So-_-It-_-Goes Jun 29 '20
I will often think of the line “For the briefest moment of pure instinct I thought I could stop it. It passed like a fleeting shadow. And I was left with shame, and with consequence.”
For example, I think of that line after wishing some anti-mask protestors would get COVID. I feel bad after thinking that. And I only think it for a second. And I think how fortunate all I am left with is shame, and no consequence.
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u/TLJDidNothingWrong Jun 29 '20
I think most of us get that, and honestly I can't say I completely blame Luke. Shit is terrifying. But it's not really a perfect mirroring is it? He went over to his nephew while Ben was sleeping and then ignited his lightsaber. It may have been a honest mistake that he immediately corrected but it's not the same as Darth Vader who was deliberately baiting him over to the dark side.
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Jun 29 '20
Except that Vader was already defenseless after Luke cut his arm and Luke was still pointing his lightsaber at him with his face full of anger, it's only after he takes a step back (and look at his hand) that he realizes he was being turned.
TLJ Luke was also being baited by the visions themselves, that were put in Kylo by Snoke/Palpatine; Snoke knew that Luke wasn't going to turn, but he only needed to give Kylo the "thought" that Luke was going to kill to finally turn him to the dark side.
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u/HeronSun Jun 29 '20
Didn't Luke almost kill Vader in a fit of rage after Vader not-so-explicitly threatened Leia, his own daughter?
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u/DarthButtz Jun 29 '20
Did yall just watch half of TLJ and just stop paying attention?
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u/Sempais_nutrients Jun 29 '20
its hard to take in information when you're scowling as hard as you can for 3 hours straight. they went in intent on hating it.
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u/giveitback19 Jun 29 '20 edited Jun 29 '20
And people are still believing the villain’s perspective of the event...
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u/Tomsk13 Jun 29 '20
Right!! This is what really winds me up about this, we get 3 versions of that scene, lukes initial lie, then kylo's version, then lukes confession. I took it that lukes version was the truth but others seem to be taking Kylo at his word. People saying its because he had a bad dream or because he maybe might possibly fall to the dark side, but Luke's point is that he sensed he had ALREADY fallen, so yeah he considered it, for a brief moment. And if you go back and watch ROTJ he clearly briefly considers killing vader as well before deciding not to. Just because someone is good it doesn't mean bad things never even cross their mind.
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u/giveitback19 Jun 29 '20
Exactly. I understand why people hate other aspects of the movie like rose and that subplot, but I just don’t get the hate here.
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u/realgeneral_memeous No one’s ever really gone Jun 29 '20
It’s almost like no one except Rian Johnson actually watched RotJ
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u/IndianPhoneScammer69 Jun 29 '20
To be fair, Luke blew up the Death Star with hundreds of thousand innocent imperial officers and soldiers, that joined the military to provide for their family, and so they thought they could help bring peace.
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u/AlphatheAlpaca Jun 29 '20
How is this a quality meme. It gets reposted every week and it's a gross misunderstanding of what truly happened.
It's like people believe Kylo's version of the story over Luke's.
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u/wings31 Jun 29 '20
Most people missed the point of this scene and therefore missed the point of Luke being alone on the island.
Luke saw the rage in Ben. He saw Ben destroying everything Luke worked for. And not just Luke - Leia. What Leia built he saw Ben destroy and take down.
When Luke saw how far down the dark path Ben went - Luke raised his saber to kill him - just as he did with Vader at the end of ROTJ. But, just like then, Luke realized he was wrong and couldnt do it.
But, this time, Luke's error in judgement came at a cost. Ben Solo becoming Kylo Ren.
It is also at this time Luke realized the Jedi had a flawed philosophy. No matter what Luke did, the Sith would always rise to try and destroy the Jedi. This is why Luke abandoned the Jedi way. To prevent the rise of the sith. The rise of Ben. He didnt turn his back on Leia, he tried to help and save Leia the only way he knew how - by not training any more Jedi because then Kylo would not become strong enough in the force to destroy what Leia built.
It is only when Luke meets Rey, and sees how powerful she is that he even thinks about helping. But, Rey goes immediately to the dark side - just like Ben - so Luke gets turned off again. He then realizes the only way to help Leia is to become the fictional hero Rey and everyone wants. To march out with his laser sword and face down the hole First Order. Which he does, bringing the spark back to the galaxy.
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Jun 29 '20
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/wings31 Jun 29 '20
100% agreed. The Last Jedi is very well written. But, it makes you think A LOT. Sure, I wanted to see Luke run around and be a badass, and have a great scene with the 3 heroes in it. But, this is amazing too. Sometimes its hard to let go of what you want to see and focus on the story that was told. When you can do that, the ST is actually really good. Well, besides Rise of Skywalker, that was a bit of a mess.
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u/DancewithRance Jun 29 '20 edited Jun 29 '20
Not hating the meme, but rant time.. Im a contrarion who liked The Last Jedi here.
I loved this scene for Luke. Really fucking grinds my gears when people get super aggressive about
Luke FORGAVE DARTH VADER. SPACE HITLER!
First,
1)as far as the movies go, Luke BARELY KNEW his father. Like, as in he never got to see the Bastard till he killed obi wan and tried blasting him in the Death Star. This is something that royally annoys me about the Star Wars fandom. Its a good criticism that the classic trilogy receives after coming into ESB knowing the twist. Its not really that amazing of a twist in modern context because Luke has only had two encounters with Vader before the reveal and we know little of Vader other than hes...an evil space wizard. He doesn't even know who Vader is prior to the Death Star, as Obi Wan has to exposition dump him, and there is zero implications he specifically knows every single thing his father has done.
2)it comes down to what Luke senses. He senses great good still in his father, he senses great evil in Kylo/Ben.
3)star wars fans "kinda forgot" the part in ROTJ where Luke in a moment of anger DISMEMBERS and nearly kills Vader. Seriously, don't give me this revisionist "he was using agressive lightsaber Kingman six side saber variation 3!" He had a lapse in judgment and nearly gave up on his whole "father not so bad!" after the dude implied he would turn Leia to the darkside
4)Oh, but what character betrayal that because he actually foresees the actions Kylo will take in great detail through the force he, for a moment, ignites his lightsaber! CHARACTER ASSASSINATION.
Give me a fucking break. Luke actually turned to the dark side in the original EU and I didn't see fans getting pitchforks, but the briefest suggestion he might precrime his space hitler 2.0 protégé is somehow a great offense.
Shit like this made me hate the star wars fanbase. I can definitely understand not liking TLJ, but some of the excuses given about how sacred the characters were to actual character development is ridiculous.
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u/notmyinitial-thought Jun 29 '20
The biggest problem with this for me is that Anakin actually did a lot of horrible stuff on screen. We see him slaughter tusken raiders and jedi and we might as well have seen him actually slaughter younglings. But we are only told Kylo killed a bunch of people. All we actually see him do in the trilogy is fight people he’s already at war with. It makes it easier to give him a redemptive arc but harder to believe the very scene that turned him evil in the first place
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u/zdakat Jun 29 '20
Kind of wished they had expanded on the burning of the new Jedi training place, or some of the other parts of his fall to the dark side.
(could have even used that to build parallels to show where Rey could have made bad choices but did or didn't make a different one)
While there's things in ST that probably could be better explained with a quick scene, since this character turned out to be important that part of their story should imo have been more than just a "uh well stuff happened".
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u/jenioeoeoe Jun 29 '20
They do that in a comic, but yeah, it totally should have been in the movie
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u/smully39 Jun 29 '20
Yeah, and if we include the comics Hux and Kylo literally destroy a civilization between TLJ and ROS for sheltering the fleeing resistance. The comics and novelizations do a great job explaining a lot of this, though we should have seen them in the films.
For example, it makes more sense if Luke briefly sensed the Emperor manipulating Kylo in his dreams and had a massive PTSD-fueled event.
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u/djangoman2k Jun 29 '20
We saw him actively assist in blowing up an entire solar system, magnitudes worse than anything Vader ever did
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u/FNC_Luzh Jun 29 '20
Lmao the first scene of the Sequels is Kylo Ren ordering to execute an entire village that were at war with no one and himself killing an old family friend that knew him for years.
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u/teniaava Jun 29 '20
The first scene of TFA shows Kylo and company slaughtering the hell out of a village because one guy has some intel on Luke Skywalker. I guess it depends on your definition of "at war with"... But still.
That said I agree there wasn't anything like the Younglings/Tusken Raiders/Order 66 to really show Kylo as deranged and genocidal.
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u/Haifuna Jun 29 '20
That said I agree there wasn't anything like the Younglings/Tusken Raiders/Order 66 to really show Kylo as deranged and genocidal.
Cuz they wanted him and Rey together at some point. Killing han was as far as they dared to go with the murdering and for most it was already too far to be redeemed
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u/odst94 Jun 29 '20
The sequels of the prequels were released first. There was no Anakin Skywalker until he was redeemed in 1983. It's a false equivalency to compare the prequels to the sequels in this context.
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u/Bogzbiny Jun 29 '20
the very scene that turned him evil
Ever since his conception Snoke was around him and twisting his mind, seeing Luke was just the cherry on top. It's not like Anakin who dreamt about Padmé's death and that became the catalyst of his turn.
I agree we could've seen more about Snoke's manipulation on screen, and I really thought that TROS would do that with the whole Palpatine / Snoke / Vader 'Every voice you've ever heard inside your head' thing in trailers.
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u/Nonadventures somehow returned Jun 29 '20
Y'all so salty, he was just going to cut off a hand per tradition
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u/TheHabro Jun 29 '20
You know what's even more infuriating? Same thing happened in legends, Luke would even kill his newphew if his son didn't intervene. You know what's even more infuriating than that? Leia and Han lost all hope too.
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u/Analytical_Chemist Jun 29 '20
This meme is hilarious. Now that I've said that, I want to say something else.
I am sick and tired of people complaining about Luke trying to kill Ben Solo, but also tried to save Vader. It makes perfect sense if you assume that Luke considered the fact that by the time he discovered who his father was, Darth Vader had already committed all these atrocities. Luke could have in no way prevented the evil and death brought upon the galaxy by Darth Vader. He was a 20 something on the death star with a single chance to talk to his dying father. He was trying to save Vader the entire time, because the Jedi believe in redemption.
Fast forward 20 years, and after months of training with his nephew, trying to sway him from the dark side, you find that Ben is still being lured to it. In a moment of weakness, Luke ignited his lightsaber to save the galaxy from another Vader. He even acknowledged the moment of weakness, and said that he knew it was wrong. He may not have shut it off before Ben realized what happened, but he wasn't going to kill Ben. He remembered that Vader could be redeemed, and knew he must try to help his Nephew. Even in his final act, Luke is trying to teach Ben as if they were still master and apprentice by doing the Jedi thing, saving what matters even at the cost of your own life.
Thanks for coming to my Tedtalk.
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u/Astrosimi Jun 29 '20
I joined this sub for some Sequel-positive memes, if I wanted bashing I’d go over to fucking r/PrequelMemes.
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u/ThatOneThingOnce Jun 29 '20
I mean, that's not really it though. Luke saw Kylo as a failure of his teachings, thus why he reacted as he did, because he needed to fix the failure he caused. But Vader was never really a failure of Luke's, so he only saw him as someone to save. Also, are we just forgetting the whole ESB? Luke wanted to kill Vader for basically killing Han and his father and because he was a Rebel vs Empire. He only "found good in him" when he found out he was his father and had some time to reflect on that.
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u/cookerlv Jun 29 '20
Did you guys forget that Luke beat Vader within an inch of his life before (lol) tossing aside his lightsaber?
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u/advester Jun 29 '20
But luke got angry and started swinging madly and cut off vader’s hand... all he did with ben was turn on his saber for a second.
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u/Solid-Title-Never-Re Jun 29 '20
I feel like there's two different ideas here. The first is that of redemption, the second is that of prevention. If Anakin was killed in the clone wars, or Yoda struck him down as an applicant in episode 1, many live may have been saved. It's something akin to the trolley problem.
Added to the apparent plot of episode 9 Darth Sideous was still alive and still very much influencing events. Who's to say the vision and the action and response were not all the outcome of Sideous's influence. It's implied in the Prequels Sideous affects even Yoda's abilitily to see the future, who's to say he doesn't cause Luke's to stray away.
The only real problems with episode 8 is actually episode 7. For one, episode 7 ends in a cliffhanger of Rey meeting Luke, that immediately must be answered, its like having Luke show up at the end of episode 4 meeting a strange puppet before rolling credits. The need to respond to the cliffhanger lead naturally to the second big problem: 8 immediately follows episode 7 like a day after the events of 7. No other star wars does that, even the retconned movies only do it with entirely different people (which creates a very weird tonal shift at the beginning if 4, but somehow everybody likes that unneeded piece of crap). This creates temporal continuity issues that are best resolved by writing two movies together instead of trying to fit a movie around a jagged stand alone movie. I call this the Back to the future problem. BttF2 has to immediately take off from the ending of 2, reshooting the same scene even for actress replacement, but her character is a problem, so they promptly put her to sleep, and simply retcon leaving her in the wrong present. Compared to BTTF 3, which was written together, there's better call and response to ensure better continuity and cleaner transitions. Serial movies and even TV shows usually have vague unspecified time lapses between events to allow lwriters a better clean slate for placing characters and events. Most audience members don't know the exact time jumps, but know that characters must have shifted and changed between events, or moved across the galaxy. Episode 5 & 6 for instance has an indefinite ending for Han (due to Fords contract being different) that allows 6 to pop up with his rescue and introducing Luke having gotten used to his hand, and even building his own lightsaber. Episodes 7 & 8 weren't written together and helmed by completely different directors. Compare this to Infinity War and endgame which gets to eat the cake of temporal continuouity between films, but then cuts to black 20 minutes in with 5 years later to have a complete character reset. The next third of the movies is getting the gang back together and finding out what everyone has been up to for character building.
What's easy to forget is the end of 8 when they call for helps, it's been like a max of three days after the New Republic Capital system and Navy have been destroyed. Systems everywhere are gonna be shitting their pants wondering what to do. Think back at how quickly any government has been able to respond to anything: very slowly. After 9/11, there was a societal shift, with the spread of Covid 19, countries around the world sat on their thumbs and cried not knowing what to do when they started sucking their thumbs. Systems in star wars not being able or willing to send military aid when theyre looking for their own safety few days later makes complete sense. If there's a time jump, and the galaxy has started pulling the self back together, but the resistance is futile, then yes, that's actual drama: the universe has given up on the Resistance and willing to suffer subjegation for survival.
The poorer writing choice in episode 8 VS 5 though, is 5 clearly shows the Rebellion knows to have all ships separate, go through multiple systems and rendezvous later, so Leia and Chewy showing up two weeks late isn't that big of a deal. Even the UNSC in Halo has something similar in their standard protocol. Episode 8 however has the entire Resistance moving together as a group. It's stupid.
A better 8 has Rey meeting Luke, pressuring him to train her, while the resistance flees and scatters, and Finn recovers in a Bacta Tank. Then an indefinite amount of time passes, the Resistance has been losing engagements since Starkiller base, with Kylo Ren continuously harassing and defeating them making him more threatening, the universe less interested in providing resources that will simply go to waste and earn the wrath of the first order, which is actually still quite resourceful. Rey can actually have adequate time training in the force under Luke. All of this can simply be exposition or hell even a title scroll if you want to just show Rey and Luke's meeting as a flashback. The rest of the movie can be more or less the same actually although I personally would prefer Finn being force sensitive,(ie the reason for the title of Force Awakens, is a previously insensitive Finn Awakens to the force and has to turn away from the first order) however it wouldn't be crucial for him to learn under Luke. He can be trained dproperly between movies by a competent Rey, Luke or even Leia. The only real stupid parts are the ships chasing each other, but other ship freely coming and going, and the near instaneous hyper space travel when in episode 4 and 1 it seemed like multiple hours at least. Yeah the giant horse dog racing wasn't the best, but c'mon ewoks, etc: it's a kids movie and franchise.
Granted I'm also of the opinion there was way too much Harrison Ford in episode 7. It was like starting a new DND campaign and one of the Players keeps playing his level 20 Rogue prince General while all the other players have agreed their old characters are supposed to be NPCs. Next session the player is forced to take over an xwing NPCs, but really has a hard time understanding the change in character.
I say all this because for all of it, I like episode 8, maybe in part for its flaws, but especially its cinematography. It's the better film of the new trilogy even if between 7 and 9 it just doesn't fit plot wise or anything. It's episode 7.5 in context of plot.
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u/Auknight33 Jun 29 '20
To be fair, to Luke's knowledge Obi-Wan was the only person Vader killed, and he clearly let himself be killed. I think part of the reason Luke was able to see the good in him and Obi-Wan wasn't was because Like hadn't experienced the betrayal and horrors of Vader like Obi-Wan had.
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Jun 29 '20
After all the trouble Luke went through trying to save Vader at the end he was probably like fuck it I’ll just end this kids whole career right now.
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u/PillBlowCracklins Jun 30 '20
Well to be clear, Vader was his dad and Kylos dad slept with Luke’s sister, so there’s that
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u/LoFiCami Feb 05 '22
The knowledge that Ben’s heart had already been turned by the Sith, mixed with a vivid premonition of him committing genocide and torture on a level that rivaled Darth Vader?
Anakin would’ve caved in and killed Ben in that instant. Yoda would’ve exiled him, at best. Luke had a brief instinct to kill him, and then decided to go the Obi-Wan route and just continue counseling the kid.
Character-wise, absolutely works for me. Luke isn’t some perfect paragon, he’s a guy who makes the right choice in the end, even if his instincts are every bit as emotional as his father’s. That’s always been the case, and I personally like that we keep it consistent in the actual canon.
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u/thedetective10 Jun 29 '20
Everyone keeps comparing TLJ Luke to ROTJ Luke... if you think that 20 years later he should be the same character then I don't know what to say. He would have grown as a person as the years went by and become a wise and powerful Jedi master while rebuilding the Jedi order with the help of Obi Wan and Yoda but apparently Disney thought we wouldn't want something like that.
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u/rich519 Jun 29 '20
I also have no idea how anyone thinks Luke getting caught up in a battle with a Sith is even remotely comparable to standing over a sleeping teenager with a lightsaber.
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u/odst94 Jun 29 '20
Yoda tells Anakin "careful you must be when sensing the future Anakin, the fear of loss is a path to the dark side" in Revenge of the Sith in reference to Anakin's wife Padme. Anakin's son Luke senses the fearful future in his nephew Ben and exhibits a path to the dark side for a brief instant.
It's like some of you people don't even pay attention to Star Wars beyond its surface of lightsabers and pew pew pews.
Thank the Force for constructive Star Wars communities like/r/StarWarsCantina and thank Rian Johnson for flipping Star Wars on its head and removing Star Wars from the box this whiny bratty fandom put it in.
Star Wars "fans" bit the George Lucas hand that fed them and are now crying for him back. In the words of Obi-Wan Kenobi, "you have done that yourself! You have become the very thing you swore to destroy!"
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u/Zack1701 Jun 29 '20
Good thing that scene where Luke goes bananas on Vader's ass in RotJ because he threatened his sister doesn't exist.
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u/Sempais_nutrients Jun 29 '20
is /r/sequelmemes just /r/saltierthancrait now? because this 'hot take' isn't indicative of the actual plot and is just a tired phony criticism at this point.
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u/JustJeneius Jun 29 '20
Yes, unfortunately.
It's easier to go with the grain than against it and I'm sure OP posting a positive meme about The Sequels won't get the same amount of traction.
Thankfully, Reddit doesn't actually matter in the grand scheme of things and I know plenty of people who like The Sequels, despite their flaws. :)
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u/TLJDidNothingWrong Jun 29 '20 edited Jun 29 '20
Honestly, while I love Luke always and forever, it was truly cruel how he treated Ben from a storyline perspective. I understand people change over decades, but his nephew, like Anakin, was brutally tortured mentally and emotionally during his most vulnerable years, but Luke gets so afraid of his nephew that he considers killing Ben (NOT Kylo) in his sleep; while he never considered anything similar for Darth Vader who had already done very evil things on a galactic scale for decades when Luke steps in the picture.
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u/TheJusticeAvenger Jun 29 '20
while he never considered anything similar for Darth Vader
Was this not the same, if not worse?
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Jun 29 '20
Yall are here arguing like Anakin didn’t fall to the dark side over pussy. Luke wanted to kill ben bc he was scared of ben when he looked into the future. He got scared then he got angry and then he suffered for it.
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u/Flarrownatural Jun 29 '20
Am I the only one who remembers that he almost killed Vader too?
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u/WedgeSolo Jun 29 '20
Luke literally said, "Snoke had already turned his heart." And it wasn't a dream cool kid. More dopey Star Wars memes/fans.
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u/possiblysamuel Jun 29 '20
This is just really tiring at this point. You can not like the movie, but at least know what was happening in this scene. There are real reasons to not like the movie. People are just going to keep using Kylo's perspective and ignore that Luke just thought of it for a second while in RotJ he brutally chopped his own father's entire arm off.
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u/Our_GloriousLeader Jun 29 '20
My character made a mistake? Is dis bad writing tho?? omg ryan john no!!
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u/beanosII Jun 29 '20
people seem to forget that Luke wasn't going to kill Ben. It was an instinct, a fleeting thought and Luke regretted it so much he went into exile
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u/ItsJonWhatsUp Jun 30 '20
Luke’s arch in the sequel trilogy is so antithetical to the OT and it’s sad
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u/Jecht315 Jun 29 '20
I'm genuinely curious why people love Kylo so much. He was a whiny bitch.
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u/shader_m Jun 29 '20
I never considered to compare Original trilogy Luke to the Sequel trilogies version. I always thought "same actor, same Luke" but... its different writers, directors, and producers... so the control Mark Hamill had over keeping Luke how he always was, was probably reduced or stopped.
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u/Scandicorn Jun 29 '20
Is it just me or does Luke look like Barney from Flinstones Viva Rock Vegas?
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u/runnin17 Jun 29 '20
The handling of the whole thing was a mess. I thought we’re going to somewhat fix it when Ben turned to the light side, but then they up and killed him off. I wanted Han Solo as a Jedi (speaking of Ben here)!
I knew they had to essentially get rid of Luke even though the whole story arc was garbage. They truly just tried to make things a little to PC for me
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u/callontoblerone Jun 29 '20
Wasn’t it a feeling though? He could sense the good in his father but Kylo just scared the absolute shit out of him. Even gave him a chance and was like, “nope. Bro you scary.”
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u/still_gonna_send_it Jun 29 '20
To be fair Luke was a young man when he judged Vader and an older gentleman when he judged Kylo. Maybe he learned a bit regarding the issue
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u/R_O_L_E_S Jun 29 '20
Since we establish force projections in this movie, have Luke see Snoke creeping into Kylo's hut. He bursts in, laser sword out and ready to go, only for the Snoke projection to vanish and Kylo thinks he sees Luke about to gank him in his sleep.
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u/thelegend90210 Jun 29 '20
vader has taught me that you can kill a bunch of kids but if you feel bad about it 20 years later you go to heaven
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u/ChaosMetalDrago Jun 29 '20
Honestly, do you people watch these movies blindfolded and with noise canceling headphones or something?
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u/Legit_Zurg Jun 29 '20
Like was like what? Early 20s in the OG trilogy? I don't think it's unreasonable that in his older rage he was different. I still think it's odd for him to turn on his nefew like that though. In my mind I choose to think that Sidious was also influencing Luke toward this moment. Still hate that movie but hey, still trying to reason/cope with it
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u/GhostBear85 Jun 29 '20
Luke is wanted to prevent the next Vader and that’s what he saw in Kylo’s future. It would’ve been interesting if Luke would’ve just let things play out. Perhaps he could’ve watched Kylo closer and made sure he stayed on the light side.
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u/John_Smith_2020 Jun 29 '20
To be fair, if he hadnt tried to redeem Vader, everything would Have ended the same way.
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Jun 29 '20
To be fair he didn’t know everything that Vader did. Even in legends when he saw Vader choking Padme he questioned his decision.
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u/QuinnySpurs Jun 29 '20
Except, Luke didn’t act on his momentary impulse, but don’t let that get in the way of your narrative here.
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Jun 29 '20
Clearly none of you are old. When you get old, go back and rewatch Mark Hamill play an old, more paranoid Luke again and realize that young you definitely would have let their DAD live and old you would have killed this emo punk without question.
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u/tacoslikeme Jun 29 '20
Star Wars...the story of how one family fucked up the entire system...a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away.
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u/emperor42 Jun 29 '20
Luke: there's still good in you Also Luke 2 minutes later: DIE YOU SON OF A BITCH!
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u/MehdudeDude Jun 29 '20
Not gonna lie, the way I viewed it was that fear is a mindkiller. Luke made the decition with his father in a miment, with his nephew he had time and doubts and that killed him.
I liked that even he as Jedi was not imune to doubts and it led to a disaster. High stakes and all that.
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u/livefreeordont Jun 29 '20 edited Jun 29 '20
I like how visions and prophecies in literature work. Whenever you see a painful future, you do something out of character to prevent it, and in the end you are the cause of it
Luke with Kylo
Anakin with Padme
Oedipus's father with Oedipus
Macbeth with Macduff
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u/mildashers Jun 29 '20
He also exiled himself for letting himself and his students down in that moment.
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u/spaceageranger poe simp Jun 29 '20
Luke beat the shit of Vader before stopping. Luke THOUGHT about killing Ben but didn’t. Both times were a moment of weakness and y’all just refuse to accept that
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Jun 29 '20
To be fair, he thought about it for a spilt second, and then decided not to. He also killed millions on both death stars, and hundreds of stormtrooper.
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u/earl------- Jun 29 '20
He had a moment of weakness give him a break being a trainer must be stressful af especially when you think youre training a sith lord
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u/Flobro4 Jun 30 '20
Yeah this... Really, really bothered me.
His whole story was that no one was beyond saving, no matter how bad. ESPECIALLY family.
Naturally, this does not extend to his teenage nephew who has actually done nothing immoral at this point.
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u/swampstix79 Jun 30 '20
These new star wars movies with exception to rogue 1 are all about defaming the original cast in order to elevate the new poorly written main cast. And not putting Han, Leia and Luke in a scene together is the worst tragedy of all with these new movies! So sad and those characters and actors who played the original cast were horribly disrespected by the makers of the new movies too!
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u/RickyBobbyBooBaa Jun 30 '20
Yeah this is the floor in the story that even Mark Hamil didn't like and bought it up apparently, Luke almost died and risked everything proving there was still good in the mass murderer Vader but at the first inkling of Kylo seeing the dark side, panicked
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u/nut_4 Jun 30 '20
It would be cool if we got a clone wars style show about Luke’s academy. It could help explain how Luke became like that, I think it would make a lot of people happier with The Last Jedi (myself included).
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u/[deleted] Jun 29 '20
So anyway, I started blastin'.