r/Vinesauce • u/RT-Pickred Reddit Mod - AlizarinRed • Apr 23 '17

NEWS Goodbye /r/vinesauce theme, goodbye subreddit individuality, goodbye discord logo links, goodbye custom flairs, goodbye twitch page logo avatars, goodbye information scroll bar, hello homogenous Reddit!

In case you all missed it, yesterday the Reddit admins announced they will be doing away with CSS.

Here is a small list of the things you may find missing from Reddit after this change on some other subreddits as well. (thanks to /u/reseph for the list)

  • Functionality: /r/Overwatch has subreddit filters

  • Functionality: /r/Dota2 has a list of current livestreams and their # of viewers

  • UX: /r/videos has a list of rules where on hover it expands out to explain each rule

  • Functionality: /r/Minecraft has a list of server status (icons) on sidebar

  • UX: /r/Hearthstone has notices & links on the top banner

  • Personality: /r/ffxiv has various CSS Easter Eggs to give it a bit more personality

  • Functionality: /r/Starcraft has a "verified user" system

  • UX: /r/Guildwars2 increased the the size of "message the moderators" to make it stand out more

  • UX: /r/ffxi has a small tooltip if a user hasn't set a user flair yet

  • UX: /r/DarkSouls2 has related subreddits linked on the sidebar with images instead of text

  • Personality: /r/mildlyinfuriating's joke where it slightly rotates "random" comment threads

  • Functionality: /r/ClashOfClans not only has a list of livestreams, but thumbnail previews of each

  • UX: /r/DarkSouls3 has a reminder when hovering over the downvote button

  • Personality: /r/StarWars has quote popups when you upvote

  • UX: /r/pcmasterrace has changed the "report" link to red

  • UX: /r/explainlikeimfive has custom colored link flair icons

  • Personality: /r/mylittlepony has countless emotes

  • Personality: /r/onepiece has a scrolling banner (which can be paused)

  • UX: /r/FinalFantasy has green background stickies to make them stand out

  • Personality: /r/mildlyinteresting has a moving gauge on sidebar

  • Functionality: /r/IASIP has a top menu

  • UX: /r/DoctorWho has a light red box on sidebar for new users to read

  • UX: /r/gallifrey disables the PM link on "Created by" so users focus on modmail

The admins have made it clear that they are going to move forward with this regardless of what the moderators or users of the site think. We hope there may be some of our users who care enough about the CSS here and their other subreddits that by being vocal and outspoken early we can maybe prevent Reddit from making this mistake.

Without CSS, subreddits will all look the same, maybe the ability to change to a different color and a custom image header. This means no Twitch Streamer Logos, accurate colors and design to the official website, custom footer, scrollbar header, and unique subreddit designs, custom markdown designs within comments as well as well as the flexibility of the emote in size changes.

And this is just a small list of things that would be gone. This is a huge deal to us mods. We work hard to make sure this place is a true community. So we need your help to let the admins know we think this is a bad idea, and if you want to show your support in keeping CSS, please let the admins know by commenting in the thread in /r/modnew, or just CLICK HERE.

If you want CSS to stay or have some support in the long run come join /r/ProCSS! The discussion and being proactive about it will be the only way for the admins to hear our Cry.

158 Upvotes

100% Upvoted

37 comments sorted by

9

u/[deleted] Apr 23 '17

Just to play devil's advocate, I can understand the pain they have of being concerned with DOM changes breaking CSS, which questions what their level of responsibility is to withhold changes as to not break people's CSS. Not to mention it is true the mobile app is providing an inconsistent user experience. From a technical perspective I can understand why they want to shy away from the headache of everyone customizing things on their own. Especially when some communities do tricks like hiding downvote arrows or other Reddit-deviant behavior (which wouldn't work on the mobile app anyway.) I'm sympathetic to Reddit's position based on that.

However, I do agree that high levels of customization are important to a community's identity. So you would hope that whatever this platform-independent customization is they're talking about, it will offer a lot of flexibility and options. If it's painfully constraining, then I can definitely see the degraded experience there. Whatever it is though, yes, you probably will lose extreme customization like the streamer status icons. But again, if cross-platform unity and consistency is what they feel is a concern, limiting such fringe modifications are to be expected.

2

u/RT-Pickred Reddit Mod - AlizarinRed Apr 23 '17

I do have a soft spot to the idea of having it being unified however, I would hope due to the fact it planned to be a widget system they might include some form of Creation Tools for such widgets which could be queued and reviewed by the Reddit Staff and/or community.

If this becomes a thing I will 100% support this as it means that we will still have functionality and possibly new ways to adding unique experiences other then finding CSS Hacks to make unique but weirdly functional Buttons and Dropdown menus.

For example, If Reddit allows for API pulls back and forth to read twitch API a Twitch Streamer Widget could be made to replace the current streamer bar.

However, with the Admins just telling us they are removing CSS and replacing it with a Widget system with no images to show what exactly it might look like It feels like they want us to blindly trust them... again.

Look at where that got us in the past... (Not just talking about Reddit this time)

1

u/[deleted] Apr 24 '17 edited Apr 24 '17

It feels like they want us to blindly trust [the Admins]... again. ... Look at where that got us in the past... (Not just talking about Reddit this time)

Not sure if that was an oblique reference to the management of vinesauce.com, because I was thinking about that through this thread.

But yeah, I was dodging Reddit politics here, and just respecting the "why", since this thread was promoting keeping the CSS around, which I can respect why they would want to move away from it.

As for all the API biz, now we get into all kinds of crazy potential security holes and scamming mechanisms that become Reddit's responsibility. (Unless you meant specifically Twitch's API, but then, does Reddit want to support Twitch when they change stuff?) Any extension beyond a self-contained world brings about technical hurdles and implicit support of third party stuff. I can also understand Reddit not wanting to have to deal with any of that unless they had a financial interest to gain or at least a huge majority of Twitch-stream-based communities that need that sort of thing.

And, again, how do you provide useful platform-independent rendering of something as proprietary as our streamer list?

Personally I think what we all really want is a centralized community contact alternative to the Discord that's managed by the community with full control. Unlike the present hosted, useless spam forum.

1

u/RT-Pickred Reddit Mod - AlizarinRed Apr 24 '17

For that last part was mostly talking about how bad designs plague most websites that end up dying because of it being against the Userbase. Digg, for example, is the reason why Reddit became a thing. However, I guess you could use the VS Forums as a comparison like you are making but that is more of a stretch.

And by API I mean just the basic writing and Spez has said after this comment

Will you guys allow (and or consider) any deeper customization for those who are familiar with the appropriate language?

Spez replied:

Yes, if we can find a way to make it cross-platform and secure.

This makes me hopefully but you know what's Cross-Platform and Secure? CSS and you know how to make it more secure so that it can't obscure/remove things not wanting to be removed? Add a parser to make sure it doesn't remove it.

Honestly, this just makes me hate phone apps even more now that they are limiting the PC users options even when you can literally use the Phone Browser version fine for most of Reddit.

I am angry about this but if they can at least show me why I shouldn't be with actual images and examples I will at least be able to think otherwise.

1

u/[deleted] Apr 24 '17

This makes me hopefully but you know what's Cross-Platform and Secure? CSS

... for viewing web pages, yes. I don't know the technicals of the Reddit mobile app, but if it's using something else, e.g. a GUI widget toolkit, then CSS obviously is not going to work here. (Even then, if it was HTML-based, it still becomes the problem of maintaining the desktop, mobile sites, and mobile apps all presumably using distinct layout code and having to pander to the needs of everyone while trying to make changes as needed.)

Honestly, this just makes me hate phone apps even more now that they are limiting the PC users options even when you can literally use the Phone Browser version fine for most of Reddit.

The use-by-browser statement is true, I don't personally bother with the Reddit app. Heck I even put Reddit in Desktop viewing mode on my phone's browser and it works well enough sans a few quirks.

But I know that a native phone app will always be able to perform better and probably use less battery than a site inside a mobile browser, along with niceties like integrating directly with the phone OS's native notification systems and such and other deep integrations. There's lots of reasons they could want to pursue an app that has nothing to do with its webpage-based equivalent usage path. But there goes your CSS and arbitrary customizations.

72

u/[deleted] Apr 23 '17 edited Apr 23 '17

I'm very disappointed by this.

The subreddit I mod has a guy working on our CSS so we don't have to use stcky and I'm really wondering whether we should even bother. CSS is what gives this site its flair. I don't want Reddit to become its mobile site.

I'd just like to say that, while it still exists, /r/vinesauce has one of the most beautiful custom CSS jobs I've seen during roughly half a decade of Redditing across a few accounts.

28

u/cutiepyro Apr 23 '17

they let places like /r/incels stay and they actively try to ruin other subreddits

excellent

36

u/[deleted] Apr 23 '17

Well, Reddit's administration has been consistently awful. They seem to just keep making decisions the community is unanimously against.

I don't use /r/the_donald, but I'm shocked that they actually changed the algorithms of the website to keep then off the front page, and that Spez didn't step down when he was caught literally changing what some the_donald users (like them or not) were saying. He very likely was fudging vote counts and golds given counts when he got caught for it as well.

Or when they removed the upvote/downvote count. Nobody wanted that to be gone! There wasn't a single person it benefitted.

13

u/cutiepyro Apr 24 '17

as much as i hate /r/the_donald , that's just awful. Fuck that

11

u/RT-Pickred Reddit Mod - AlizarinRed Apr 24 '17

Well TBH the Subreddit orignally was designed (The Creators of it said both on Reddit and on there Private chat groups) that they designed the Subreddit to abuse the Algorithms and to force all the content to the front page.

For a good while it did, the reason why we don't see them to much is because they adapted the algorithms to avoid this abuse. This however has made other subreddit posts not get to the top as fast but it isn't that bad.

When people the Admins of singling T_D out it wasn't really singling them out the problem was it was singling out the Top post in ALL meaning that T_D had the first post and it hides all of the other T_D posts. It was a weird issue but it was resolved.

-3

u/StickiStickman Apr 23 '17

I love how literally everything you listed were just half-truths.

13

u/[deleted] Apr 23 '17

What was wrong? Genuinely asking here, not just being sarcastic.

5

u/StickiStickman Apr 24 '17

They changed the algorithm because /r/the_donald were breaking the old one with upvoting literally anything and or using bots, not because they didn't like them. He also wasn't "caught changing what they said", he changed literally one word to his name. The part about him changing the gold and votes is complete bs.

2

u/matthew28845 FLEENTSTONES? Apr 25 '17

We need a ProCSS logo somewhere.

1

u/RT-Pickred Reddit Mod - AlizarinRed Apr 25 '17

It's hard to find an actual place to put it without making it look out of place TBH.

2

u/matthew28845 FLEENTSTONES? Apr 25 '17

Maybe above the fanart in the sidebar.

32

u/CyborgNinja777 Apr 23 '17

Ah yes, classic Reddit. One of the few platforms that consistently fuck their userbase in the ass, yet people still cone back for more

5

u/baranxlr Apr 24 '17

I don't think you've seen 9gag.

10

u/BeyondModern Apr 25 '17

Or YouTube

3

u/AptPupil709 Apr 26 '17

Last.fm has a lovely habit of doing this as well

21

u/[deleted] Apr 23 '17

/r/ProCSS

20

u/piergaming Apr 23 '17 edited Apr 23 '17

Yeah, why the heck should Reddit keep individual CSS styles for subreddits? Obviously everyone loves and prefers the standard stylesheets so much more over fun personalized ones. I actually got a suggestion handy too! 100% garantueed no outdated CSS garbage. http://i.imgur.com/OMtSQAY.png

That shouldn't make any problems with the new web tools that "force them to remove the customisations" either. I feel like it harmonizes quite well with the platform too. :)

I feel like my mock-up is missing hair-thin fonts and grey on grey text though. Everyone likes that, right? It's not hard and boring to look at. :D

that was a rhetorical question, we don't care about you. <3 u all!

6

u/JackBond1234 Apr 23 '17

Have the admins described what their replacement is going to be like? I should hope they plan to make it similarly powerful, if they even can.

4

u/MOV_Games Apr 24 '17

Wow that sucks. The unique personality of each Subreddit was one of the good things about this site.

It's essentially gonna look like this then: https://web.archive.org/web/20170424162313/https://www.reddit.com/r/Vinesauce/comments/670ur2/goodbye_rvinesauce_theme_goodbye_subreddit/

1

u/[deleted] Apr 29 '17

Yeah, basically. It's more a shame than it would be otherwise because reddit's default theme looks like complete ass. If they're doing this they ought to make the site's default theme /r/Naut or something, just so it doesn't look as shitty.

6

u/Sallymiakki Toilet Account User Apr 23 '17

there's a reason for why i only really ever post here and reddit constantly railing on it's userbase is a huge part of it.

3

u/PM_ME_HAIRLESS_CATS Apr 24 '17

I said on another, far less cheerier sub, that this is like Digg launching v4.

I really don't know what reddit hopes to accomplish but by wanting to abolish CSS, they're already expecting a lot of functionality to go away.

I've done massive theming projects for big companies in the past, and it always turns into a nightmare when they want specialized changes that calls upon markup. Eventually, we moved a lot of that aside in the name of "mobile first" and severely limited what customization was available. Granted, there were specific business reasons for why we did this and every stakeholder had signed off on their new "customization" options which ultimately means less billable hours, stability, and brand consistency.

Note the key part here -- the stakeholders had signed off. That's what matters. /u/spez could never expect to get the approval of all of reddit for removing features, especially since we're users, and not stakeholders. At best, customizing post-redesign will be the ability to change a few colors, maybe a logo, and to turn off smileys/spoiler tags.

Meanwhile, the bandwidth being spent on the redesign could be used to shore up search reliability, or deal with some of the less pleasant communities here. More than ever, it's hard to not be skeptical of the changes occurring on this website.

3

u/[deleted] Apr 25 '17

So like, basically the website wants to commit suicide? Like this would be twitch removing emotes... and subs.

2

u/Adilendian Apr 27 '17

What? Are you serious, I just search and found this Reddit...and you know what caught my eye and made me want to look around? This clean, sleek, chic theme. And I find out that Reddit is going to get rid of the best part of their site?

1

u/Narfhole Apr 24 '17

Reddit administration is gonna reddit administration...

1

u/TotesMessenger May 01 '17

I'm a bot, bleep, bloop. Someone has linked to this thread from another place on reddit:

If you follow any of the above links, please respect the rules of reddit and don't vote in the other threads. (Info / ^Contact)

1

u/Segtend0 Leafling Account User May 04 '17

I've honestly never had a problem with this Reddit. My favorite part is probably the live streamers at the top.

You guys are the admins. You do what's best.

1

u/holditsteady Apr 25 '17

i always disable subreddit style anyways

1

u/[deleted] May 06 '17

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/RT-Pickred Reddit Mod - AlizarinRed May 06 '17

If you think reddit is already filled with horrible commenters Voat is filled with people who were banned from reddit for using hate subreddits. Let alone they are planning a redesign soon to make them selfs less like a reddit clone. So they might not even allow such css changes.